Are we sacrificing the young to save the elderly?

[RubyandBen]

Reading another thread where someone was accusing the OP of wanting to sacrifice the elderly re CV. But the longer this goes on the more education and the economy are screwed is it actually the other way round?

I agree with the reservations about China. What they did enforcing a two month lock down and workable track and trace was appalling. All those poor people living now back to normal lives traveling the country, celebrating festivals etc. And their economy is even growing again (although apparently the face mask industry is on the slide). Appalling country. And the sickest thing is I have three thousand Chinese people on my Wechat and the government must have them spending every day performing in front of green screens literally every week to trick the West. It’s like the Truman show! Of course not a single Westerner has been to China in the past decades to verify their wild claims. Awful. Now ssshh Dominic Cummings, sorry I mean Boris, is on the box to tell me what’s really going on. Have we reached 60% herd immunity yet?

Basically in answer to the OP - No.

In more words, this is a pandemic. This is a novel virus that can kill/effect huge swathes of 'old' people - the NHS does not have the capacity to deal with that number of sick people. The NHS does not have the capacity to provide services to those who 'recovery from Covid (physiotherapists, speech therapists, occupational therapist)

And that is before you factor in the issue of that the most vunerable are the BAME and those from areas of huge social deprivation (as contributed to by years of austerity) - had we not driven our social system support network into the ground over the last 10 years the death toll may not have been as high as it is.

As a novel virus, there is no circuit break in society (for example as for flu or measles in the form of vaccines) This leaves the whole population open to infection - and with that the very real risk of post viral syndromes (as we are starting to see), Covid seems to cause huge immune responses in different parts of the body, lungs, cardiac, etc. Even of this is true of only a small percentage of cases, it is a large number across a whole population.

So, we need to accept short term sacrifices (and a year is short term really), until we can get it under control, develop a vaccine etc etc.

I don't want to live in a country that abandons the old and vunerable because it was economically advantageous to do so.

But I also think we need to be keeping children in school, offering decent distance learning for students and helping people to keep mentally well through this.

No.
I think people forget it’s not just about the mortality, it’s about the rate of hospitalisation.
If this was a virus which still had a higher mortality rate in the elderly but they just dropped down dead without needing hospitalisation then it’s likely that we probably wouldn’t have so many restrictions with economic consequences. Luckily the virus doesn’t do that though.
Also how do you “shield the elderly?” They are the population that require hospital treatments in general. If you shield them and let the virus spread in younger people we will then have to deny them hospital treatment for anything and then that really is leaving a generation to die!
Get real people. It’s a pandemic. There is no easy solution.

The young are facing a horrific economic burden that will continue for a very long time. They are also about to get shafted up the bum by BREXIT, which was voted for disproportionately by the elderly. At the very least, there needs to be some serious gouging-out of pensioner wealth after this. No more triple-lock. No more freebies other than for actual poverty pensioners who have jumped through means-testing hoops. Some real action on the housing market

Yes! 👏 The current social contract has completely broken down. It needs to be rewritten.

One could say that the Conservatives need to prioritise their Tory demographic or else they won’t be re-elected. Young people are notoriously left wing.

It is so not the same for everyone. The older generation dont need to worry about finishing their education, finding a career, getting on the property ladder, and they wont still be paying the costs of this in 20/30 years time.

Meanwhile, you have 17 year olds who dont know if they're taking exams this year; dont know if they'll be able to go to uni (will the uni they want to go to go bust before they have a chance to get there?) knowing that when they DO hit the world of work, a job will be nigh on impossible to find; and that if they're lucky enough to secure a job - they'll be paying the cost of this shitshow for the next 20-30 years. And I've not even mentioned Brexit.

If you think the economic downturn that is about to hit us is comparable with any economic downturn you've already seen, you are in for a horrific shock.

THIS (applauds)

I find the idea that children will grow up to be brainless and destitute from a year of disrupted education one of the weirder takes from this whole thing....

Well it is because the average age of death from covid is 82. So it most definitely IS worse for a certain age group.

Ermm - the average age of death for the UK is about 82 anyway! to be precise it is 79.2 years for men and 82.9 years for women; although that can be further factored by the indices of deprivation, and mortality is heavily influenced by deprivation. So actually, the fact is that around that age, something - and for that read anything - may be a contributing factor in death, and everything is worse for that "certain age group".

Still interested in alternative solutions ?

@Figgygal

Why can’t all ages just adhere to the advice and guidance and laws to the benefit of all groups in our society? If protecting the elderly means younger people can’t go out on the piss I hardly think that’s an unreasonable request

Marathons have just announced 2,000 + job losses and many of those will be younger people

That is the consequence of stopping younger people ‘going out on the piss’

Marstons

@Moondust001

Well it is because the average age of death from covid is 82. So it most definitely IS worse for a certain age group.

Ermm - the average age of death for the UK is about 82 anyway! to be precise it is 79.2 years for men and 82.9 years for women; although that can be further factored by the indices of deprivation, and mortality is heavily influenced by deprivation. So actually, the fact is that around that age, something - and for that read anything - may be a contributing factor in death, and everything is worse for that "certain age group".

Yes but Moondust101 you are forgetting that only covid deaths matter! Before covid there was never anything that could kill us, and no risks associated with living.

Silly you!

I find the idea that children will grow up to be brainless and destitute from a year of disrupted education one of the weirder takes from this whole thing....

No, the idea is that they miss out on a lot of education, many of them are suffering serious damage in terms of qualifications, and then there will be hardly any bloody jobs for them in the long run. What is so hard to understand?

@Thatusernamewastaken

I find the idea that children will grow up to be brainless and destitute from a year of disrupted education one of the weirder takes from this whole thing....

The consequences of the worst recession in living memory will be felt for many years - and the young will be worst affected

@Thatusernamewastaken

I find the idea that children will grow up to be brainless and destitute from a year of disrupted education one of the weirder takes from this whole thing....

What i find weird, is the fact that you havent connected the fact that if we shut the economy down any more; many parents wont have an income; and so yes - many will end up destitute?

Moreover, for many kids, school is their sanctuary from abuse/a lack of food at home/god knows what else.

So yes, disrupted education may be fine for the middle classes with their leafy gardens and ipads and plentifully stocked fridges - but surely you can see that is not the case for everyone?

The unemployment rate in 1984 was about 12%. Remember that? All those young people with no prospects other than lowly paid YTS schemes? Guess what? That generation grew up and got through it. Just stop with all this sacrificing shit please. This is a pandemic and it is difficult.

Sure op, let's just let covid rip through the population, I'm sure that wouldn't have any impact on the economy, cancer diagnosis etc.

@MrsFrisbyMouse

Basically in answer to the OP - No.

In more words, this is a pandemic. This is a novel virus that can kill/effect huge swathes of 'old' people - the NHS does not have the capacity to deal with that number of sick people. The NHS does not have the capacity to provide services to those who 'recovery from Covid (physiotherapists, speech therapists, occupational therapist)

And that is before you factor in the issue of that the most vunerable are the BAME and those from areas of huge social deprivation (as contributed to by years of austerity) - had we not driven our social system support network into the ground over the last 10 years the death toll may not have been as high as it is.

As a novel virus, there is no circuit break in society (for example as for flu or measles in the form of vaccines) This leaves the whole population open to infection - and with that the very real risk of post viral syndromes (as we are starting to see), Covid seems to cause huge immune responses in different parts of the body, lungs, cardiac, etc. Even of this is true of only a small percentage of cases, it is a large number across a whole population.

So, we need to accept short term sacrifices (and a year is short term really), until we can get it under control, develop a vaccine etc etc.

I don't want to live in a country that abandons the old and vunerable because it was economically advantageous to do so.

But I also think we need to be keeping children in school, offering decent distance learning for students and helping people to keep mentally well through this.

The reason the NHS cant cope is because this country voted for 10 years of conservative austerity. A large proportion of these voters were older people.

Older people cant have their cake and eat it. If they voted for a conservative government that enforced deadly cuts to public services they have to live with the consequences now imo. The future of young people was never anyones concern, climate change is being ignored and the job market is bleak. We cant ask young people to sacrifice anymore of their lives when the NHS being overwhelmed in an emergency was nothing less than a certainty with our current elected leadership.

I know this is a vast generalisation but I'm just so frustrated now. I live in a shared house with strangers because thats all i can afford but now can't see anyone i actually know according to these rules, even including my boyfriend and i cant keep doing rhis for months on end. I dont think that makes me selfish, people just dont seem to realise that not everyone lives with family or friends and many young people are very isolated now.

The sacrifice the young are making isn't particularly about 6 months education, or even their mental health (i mean any more than any other group), it's about the changes to the job market when they exit school or university- in some EU countries, unemployment is at 15-30% for the young, and it devastates society to have those people feeling worthless and not economically contributing. Already we have tales on other threads about zero hours contracts being more prevalent than ever, employers won't need so many employees.

Having said that, I think a covert ageism will start to operate whereby employers will realise if they want to keep their factories and offices up and running, better to employ young people who don't get covid so severely, don't need to shield, don't have kids and the school issue and so it may be that older people are disadvantaged going forward as a natural consequence of the measures we have taken to prevent the virus. This isn't a good thing, but I could see how it could work in my own institution as many of the older staff refuse to come into work, that's being tolerated now as part of risk assessment, and I completely agree with that, but in the future, employers with an eye on the bottom line won't feel so generous towards older and more expensive employees who cannot fully take part in all aspects of the workplace. Also experienced by the disabled. No real protection from government, also due to Brexit.

Older poorer people voted for Brexit and they literally will be the worst off at the end of all this, especially with our creaking NHS as well.

The younger generation are not entitled to a good economy and plenty of Jobs. I'm 47 YO I've lived through many economic downturns, yes it's shit but it happens. Younger people are more scared by it because they've never been through it.
I'm slightly older. Young people leaving school in the 80's went out into a world where there were 3 million plus unemployed.
Those leaving school/uni in the 90's went into a world where there was a recession and no jobs.
The past was not as rosy and bright for young people starting out as some posters on here seem to think.

And yes, I agree about the students. The way they are being treated is disgusting. However, that doesn't mean that they way people over the age of 50 are being written off and called selfish is right.

In the early 90s I bought a flat with 100% mortgage. I was 24.
That can't be done now.
Rent and living costs are the main difference for young people now.
As well as covid of course.
But rent and huge cash deposits needed for a mortgage are the difference we had.

@JellyBabiesSaveLives

No.

Lots of people are making sacrifices to help lots of other people. That’s how society works.

OP, this is the fourth thread that you’ve started in the last few days, all asking ingenuous questions about the covid situation. We understand that what you really mean is “I don’t like this and I want it to stop”.

4 threads @RubyandBen....

OK so you want it to stop, it's getting you down, but keeping on and on won't make it get better.
Maybe some positive thinking?
Take a walk, try a different subject it might make you feel better

People over the age of 50 aren't being written off. I'm sick of hearing that.
" Me me me, I'm important, I'm important"

Yes we know that. We also know young people are getting hit the hardest in all this and they are the important ones here, NOT US.

One of the bizarre comments is that this is the Tories protecting their voters. Sadiq Khan & Kier Starmer are pushing for stronger lockdowns.

I a natural labour voter so happy with a bit of tory bashing but the one thing this pandemic has shown is schools seriously need to focus on critical thinking pretty damn quick.

@022828MAN

Yes. Well really we're sacrificing 99.03% to save 0.07%. Either way it's disproportionate and not rational.

I'm not in the UK , but please tell me what happened to the other 0.9% ?

On subject, I believe that me dying would be a tad more (personal) sacrifice than having to wear a mask. Although I am in a country of 70 million (comparable to the UK) there have only been 59 deaths, and only 1 death since June 2nd. To this day 99% of people are still wearing masks.

The WHO, who you pay, should be coming up with sensible solutions and advice as how to respond to C-19. And that should include solutions that help the young, the old, those in work, those losing their businesses and those working in the health care facilities.