Are we sacrificing the young to save the elderly?

[RubyandBen]

Reading another thread where someone was accusing the OP of wanting to sacrifice the elderly re CV. But the longer this goes on the more education and the economy are screwed is it actually the other way round?

Bella again that’s a very small risk. And students are (we hope) intelligent enough to work that out.

And we’re seeing that wherever possible students have gone to their accommodation and are attending all social events and f2f seminars that are allowed (and complaining vociferously about not getting more). So the actual evidence here is that these young people are not at risk directly and indirectly and are behaving accordingly.
They perfectly understand what the real risk to their group is.

Bella again that’s a very small risk. And students are (we hope) intelligent enough to work that out.

What is a very small risk? The risk the students themselves is extremely small . However the risk of a student's parents dying or being extremely ill is not a very small risk if Covid was allowed to rip through the population.

@HelloMissus

Bella again that’s a very small risk. And students are (we hope) intelligent enough to work that out.

And we’re seeing that wherever possible students have gone to their accommodation and are attending all social events and f2f seminars that are allowed (and complaining vociferously about not getting more). So the actual evidence here is that these young people are not at risk directly and indirectly and are behaving accordingly.
They perfectly understand what the real risk to their group is.

I don't think there are many social events and face-to-face seminars in most universities at the moment actually. There may have been a lot of socialising initially but now that has reduced considerably as evidenced by the fact that cases are generally going down the University's unlike the rest of the population.

Bella and students are vociferous in their complaints about it. As are their parents.
They’re not staying away from campus and social events because they want to - they have no choice. They know full well that they are receiving a much poorer education as a result and wish it were not so.

Dressing this up as something the students want in order to minimise risk to their health, risk to their parents health, is a false narrative.
This is being imposed on them. And the repercussions will be huge for them. The refusal by other age groups to at least acknowledge this is pretty dishonourable and dishonest.

@HelloMissus

Bella and students are vociferous in their complaints about it. As are their parents. They’re not staying away from campus and social events because they want to - they have no choice. They know full well that they are receiving a much poorer education as a result and wish it were not so.

Dressing this up as something the students want in order to minimise risk to their health, risk to their parents health, is a false narrative.
This is being imposed on them. And the repercussions will be huge for them. The refusal by other age groups to at least acknowledge this is pretty dishonourable and dishonest.

Social events and education are not the same thing. They are going to be receiving a poor education because they can't go down the pub.

I'm not dressing it up as something students want as that would mean they think things are being managed well at the moment which they probably don't. However, that doesn't mean they won't care if it rips through the population and some of their relatives die. One of my DC is a student and while she thinks that they should have more freedom among themselves because they are low risk and could probably keep it amongst themselves (I would agree) that doesn't mean that she thinks everything should open up whatever the consequences.

Bella it’s not about the pub! Lots of students don’t even drink.
It’s about sports and music and drama and politics and debate...
All of which are as much a part of a higher education as a course IMVHO.

You’re running the narrative that young people are wise to. First you’ll try the line that their direct and instruct health risk in this pandemic is high.
Then you’ll try to say that the risk of them killing their parents is high.
Then when you know you don’t have the argument you’ll try to say what they’re losing is unimportant. It’s going to the pub, or missing prom...

But young people ain’t daft, they know that this is not a serious assessment of the situation.

@HelloMissus

Bella it’s not about the pub! Lots of students don’t even drink. It’s about sports and music and drama and politics and debate... All of which are as much a part of a higher education as a course IMVHO.

You’re running the narrative that young people are wise to. First you’ll try the line that their direct and instruct health risk in this pandemic is high.
Then you’ll try to say that the risk of them killing their parents is high.
Then when you know you don’t have the argument you’ll try to say what they’re losing is unimportant. It’s going to the pub, or missing prom...

But young people ain’t daft, they know that this is not a serious assessment of the situation.

I know it's not just about the pub. I mean not being able to socialise does not mean they will have a poor education. They don't need to do sports or drama to get a good degree, unless they are part of their degree. The lack of face-to-face could cause a problem and I think that some of their course fees should probably be refunded to reflect that (or their loan reduced). It's not a good reason to let Covid rip through the population.

I also haven't said that their direct risk from Covid is high . I'm not sure where you have got that from that it wasn't me.

I know several uni students and they are all drinking and socialising like mad. Mostly stuck in the halls Though there's been going out too (I wouldn't want to work in 'Spoons!) It was freshers weeks, they were just away from home, in buildings with dozens if not hundreds of other students and for many away from home for the first time.

They have been going bananas and beet getting Covid - my neice just had it. Within the unis they seem to be doing what they want and as long as it's confined to their halls of residence it could be good if it burns itself out.

And I think most schools have had bouts.

@MarriedtoDaveGrohl

I know several uni students and they are all drinking and socialising like mad. Mostly stuck in the halls Though there's been going out too (I wouldn't want to work in 'Spoons!) It was freshers weeks, they were just away from home, in buildings with dozens if not hundreds of other students and for many away from home for the first time.

They have been going bananas and beet getting Covid - my neice just had it. Within the unis they seem to be doing what they want and as long as it's confined to their halls of residence it could be good if it burns itself out.

And I think most schools have had bouts.

Cases are dropping quite fast in universities now unlike in the rest of the population. I think that there is less socialising and a lot are having to self isolate. Hopefully, it is partly because many are becoming immune though. It would be great if things could be relatively normal for them after Christmas.

Covid job losses hitting young people hardest in UK, study finds
Workers aged under 25 more than twice as likely to have lost job in past two months

www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/26/covid-job-losses-hitting-young-people-hardest-in-uk-study-finds

I must find the report I read a week or two ago. About how older workers (over 50) made redundant have less chance of ever returning to work. Various reasons including age discrimination, being seen as 'over qualified', and the lower minimum wage for young people (making them more attractive to cost cutting employers).

I hope there will be help and support for new opportunities offered to all workers affected by job losses, younger and older.

Wrt Immunity. Isn't it now known that this only lasts so many months?

Yes. I fear that there will be no economy left in the north west for our children to find jobs in. I fear many areas will be a bleak desolate waste lands as they were in the '80s. ☹️ A generation faces never knowing house ownership or stable employment with good conditions.

@Madhairday

It seems to me that there is a lot of dramatising here from parents about how it is ruining their children's future. I asked my 20 year old DD what she and her friends thought and what the general thinking is. She said that they just see it as pulling together with everyone in order to stop the health services (and so every other sector of society) from being overrun by covid and thus stopping functioning which will cause more death and misery. All her friends think this too. They do not blame elderly and vulnerable people for taking their life chances away as many on this thread and MN in general seem to. They see that this is a virus, a pandemic, a distaster that we all just have to get on with keeping suppressed as far as is possible through the measures scientists advise. They see their peers who do complain about 'sacrificing for those who will die soon anyway' as pretty damn cold and lacking in compassion. For my DD and her friends, this all sucks but it does for everyone and there is nothing to be gained by this polarising of positions that ends in blaming one group or the other - why can't we just be kind, my DD says, and I concur. Why can't we just admit that this virus doesn't care about our rights and our freedoms and our mental health and so we simply have to get on with flattening the curve where we can, in order that all those rights and freedoms and mental health issues don't become even more at risk due to the whole system collapsing under greater exponential growth.

I'm so glad my DD and many of her generation see things more generously and compassionately than many on here, despite the fact that they know their future looks bleak (and already did thanks to austerity, Brexit and climate change.)

Well said, my young adults feel the same.

A generation faces never knowing house ownership or stable employment with good conditions

With all due respect there are two, possibly three generations that experienced a life like this. The drawbridge was firmly pulled up after them a couple of decades ago. This has already been lost.

Yes children and young people are having a bad time. But let us remember that they have not worked as long, paid as much tax, or put as much into the community as older people. In the case of children they do not even begin to contribute to the community until they get a job and begin to pay tax. Until that time they are simply parasites who have put nothing into the kitty. At the same time they are sucking up resources like sponges.