Are we sacrificing the young to save the elderly?

[RubyandBen]

Reading another thread where someone was accusing the OP of wanting to sacrifice the elderly re CV. But the longer this goes on the more education and the economy are screwed is it actually the other way round?

Getting a little fed up of hearing how unfair it is asking old and vulnerable to shield but thinking that it's ok what is happening with students. Seems like it's ok for students to be imprisoned (and be the generation that will pay for it).

@KetoPenguin

When you look at the mix of people in hospital with covid it's a lot younger than 80, many of these people would die without treatment. Boris probably would be dead without the treatment he had. So if the NHS is overwhelmed and people can't be treated then more younger people would be dying.

Do you have data to back this up?

Because the last chart I saw admissions in 0-64 age group stood at c. 42k and admissions in 65+ age group stood at 79k. Given that there are significantly more people overall in the age group 0-64 I'm not sure you are correct.

Honestly I despair at the number of MN posters who keep saying 'look at China' - really?! is that really how you want to live!?

Honestly I despair at the number of MN posters who keep saying 'look at China' - really?! is that really how you want to live!?

Look at South Korea also works.

Yes we are. School children are having hugely disrupted education, the shit show going on in higher education and the lack of opportunities and jobs for young people generally. Although older people are higher risk of becoming ill or dying of covid this risk is still small and they generally have the benefit of pensions, higher salaries, bigger houses etc to sit this out with. I feel the younger generation will feel the effects of this considerably more for considerably longer.

Read about long covid.

Is there any reliable evidence that "long COVID" is different to bog-standard post viral syndrome?

I think we're sacrificing the young, the poorer sections of society, people suffering from abuse, those with MH issues...

There's so many threads about this and the answer is always a resounding NO.

This affects everyone, the young are no worse off economically than anyone else. If Jobs are hard to find, they are hard to find for everyone. The younger generation are not entitled to a good economy and plenty of Jobs. I'm 47 YO I've lived through many economic downturns, yes it's shit but it happens. Younger people are more scared by it because they've never been through it.

Oh ffs, the elderly are suffering as much if not more than anyone. They're still shielding most of them, care homes are shut up and isolated. We are prioritising the economy right now and funnily enough covid is pretty shit for young people too. Are you under 25? No? Then technically you are elderly in your eyes.

Yes we are.

It'll always be a balance, and an impossible one to get right. Care home residents have been treated appallingly throughout to be honest, it's a disgrace. But yes younger people have 'sacrificed' a lot, in terms of socialising which is important at that age, education, job opportunites, chances to travel etc- and some of that isn't recoverable, the toll on their MH (as the rest of society) is also yet to be seen really. The ideal is surely for effective measures to be put in place, so things can remain open, we can socialise (with limits), but in a safer manner. If hospitals do get overwhelmed they cannot guarantee beds for those without covid, without just leaving people to die- are those decisions you would like to make?

I absolutely believe the implications beyond covid are wide spread and it shouldn't be the only thing that matters. But unfortunately whilst it's rampaging about it does matter, in terms of it it does run riot that will also affect everyone. It's a shitty situation, and am glad they are prioritising schools, and hope universities manage to sort things soon as education is the big one imo, the gap it will create between people is only going to widen and affect them forever in terms of jobs etc.

@Juststopswimming
Because the last chart I saw admissions in 0-64 age group stood at c. 42k
Well that's quite a lot isn't it?

Absolutely. It's crazy. The average age of a COVID death is 82. The average life expectancy is 81.16. I'm not saying death after 82 doesn't matter. My mum just turned 86. But would she expect us to give up the best part of our lives, going out, travelling, seeing friends, just to give her a couple more years at that age? Absolutely not. Anyone who has watched the David Attenborough documentary saying humans have overrun the planet because we have become too good at combatting disease among other things should realise how ridiculous it is to stifle our economic growth and the happiness of young people to ensure there are as many people kept alive as long as possible. The world has gone mad.

@Parker231

Ridiculous statement- No - this has affected everyone- all generations. It is not worse for any one age group.

Statistical analysis is clearly not your strong point.

I'm 47 YO I've lived through many economic downturns, yes it's shit but it happens. Younger people are more scared by it because they've never been through it
I don't think this is on remotely the same scale and who said the young are scared?

Yes. Definitely.

If you are under 25, COVID has a lower mortality rate than flu.

I can see why some young people are not sticking to the rules.

I am worried about how this will affect young people just entering the workforce (I thought times were tough when I was looking for work in 2008/2009!). There is an existing perception of inter-generational unfairness, and I worry this will make things worse.

@amusedtodeath1

There's so many threads about this and the answer is always a resounding NO.

This affects everyone, the young are no worse off economically than anyone else. If Jobs are hard to find, they are hard to find for everyone. The younger generation are not entitled to a good economy and plenty of Jobs. I'm 47 YO I've lived through many economic downturns, yes it's shit but it happens. Younger people are more scared by it because they've never been through it.

Seriously?? It is not a resounding NO - as you'll see from many of the posts above.

It is so not the same for everyone. The older generation dont need to worry about finishing their education, finding a career, getting on the property ladder, and they wont still be paying the costs of this in 20/30 years time.

Meanwhile, you have 17 year olds who dont know if they're taking exams this year; dont know if they'll be able to go to uni (will the uni they want to go to go bust before they have a chance to get there?) knowing that when they DO hit the world of work, a job will be nigh on impossible to find; and that if they're lucky enough to secure a job - they'll be paying the cost of this shitshow for the next 20-30 years. And I've not even mentioned Brexit.

If you think the economic downturn that is about to hit us is comparable with any economic downturn you've already seen, you are in for a horrific shock.

You might not care if the elderly die but letting Covid loose would mean less tourism amd trade, more job loss, worse economy, less teachers, less hospital capacity for otger diseases et cetera.

It's in the best interest of the young and strong to keep this virus contained as much as possible to save the economy, health care, jobs and economy. So it does have an effect on everybody.

Look at the European countries which have a surge now, they have less health care available for non-covid cases (you can't just leave covid patients to suffocate in the streets, can you), more businesses closed, less travel movements possible. You shouldn't want that.

[quote KetoPenguin]@Juststopswimming
Because the last chart I saw admissions in 0-64 age group stood at c. 42k
Well that's quite a lot isn't it?[/quote]
not as many as 79k though is it?

Yes. More of every age group will die due to missed cancer screening, poverty and suicide.

Probably but not just the elderly, the kid with cystic fibrosis the middle aged person recovering from cancer, the obese ones. Generally I think the government doesn't want to let it rip because theses are many more people's nan mum or child. These are voters and may well blame the conservatives if they die. Arguably having the same policy on covid as labour makes it more difficult to pin anything that is happening currently on the Tories. In reality we may need to accept that ruining somebody's whole life economically might not be worth doing compared to prolonging the existence of an already immune compromised person. But that decision needs to be made and accepted with consensus across the two main parties. Long covid consequences need to be considered too they will have a medical cost. It's also about protecting the NHS. If all the ICU beds are full of covid patients when a young couple have a car crash and there is no hospital bed for then then what. Should we just wait for the inevitable with no hospital bed and be arranging the undertaker to collect them straight from the car?

Simple generalisations here really do not help.

Wouldn't it be great if we could time travel and then wind back and do it differently next time. I would love to see what the next 6 months with an uncontrolled virus and "everyone getting on with it" looks like. Lots of deaths and illness wouldn't just leave dead and sick behind. It would leave skill gaps, job losses, a fucked economy and huge health issues for all of us as the NHS goes under.

And please don't say "let the vulnerable shield and the rest of us get on with it". Those who say that haven't thought it through at all.

There are no winners here.

Short answer No.

Long answer. No. Did no one see the images coming out of Italy at the start? We are not doing this to protect the "vulnerable" but because neither our NHS or our economy can handle that level of people that sick at once. The current situation is bad but supermarket and food factories closing on a large scale because of outbreaks between staff members?

The NHS doesn't have the capacity to handle uncontrolled Covid. That's short term people dying on a large scale because of no hospital beds and long term it's mass exodus of NHS front line staff because of the impact on their mental health.

Not to mention the fact that senior doctors are disproportionately likely (compared to the general population) to be older, male and South Asian putting them in high risk categories. Why should they be asked the put their lives on the line so others don't have to make sacrifices? What about the healthcare staff who don't fancy going months without seeing their partner with cancer, or their child with asthma or just their mum. I know at least 2 nurses who would quit if asked to make that choice.

I don't think anyone is saying the current situation is a good one, or that there won't be long term impacts but pretending we don't have a pandemic is not a viable option.

We need to look at more effective ways of making things better for young people.

Yes, according to my mum who is 78.

No restrictions equals the virus spreadung out of control. This will lead to hospitals becoming overun and people unable to recieve medical treatment for covid, falls, RTC, heart attacks, cancer, stroke, flu and anything else.
Huge numbers of employees from every sector off sick with covid... meaning shops not properly staffed, distribution and delivery nit at normal levels l, production of goods not at normal levels meaning a lack of goo available even if shops are open. NHS staff off sick meaning the medical care is further compromised.
Fire service with staff off sick meaning fires, RTC become more risky to life and property. Police service with staff shortages crime rises with no consequences. Utility companies with staff shortages, cant be maintained or repair problems as quick as normal so people without utility for longer than normal.

Yes lets do that that will be better for the youngsters

Yes