Are we sacrificing the young to save the elderly?

[RubyandBen]

Reading another thread where someone was accusing the OP of wanting to sacrifice the elderly re CV. But the longer this goes on the more education and the economy are screwed is it actually the other way round?

It is a case of screwing the 99.3% to save the 0.07% BUT nobody has a clue of the long term side effects of covid.

Who knows what long term health issues those who caught it at 18 but were totally asymptomatic may be suffering with at 40. U.K. young, fit, healthy and frustrated by covid as much as the next person under 30 but I’m also cautious about the future

Yes, that is very much the case.

Well I'm mid-thirties and high risk, but I guess leaving my son without a mother and only vulnerable grandparents in their seventies to care for him is fine then.

As long as your kid is ok.

There is no simple answer to any of this, it's a great big mess all round but it's not as simple as young vs old.

@Trackandtrace

No restrictions equals the virus spreadung out of control. This will lead to hospitals becoming overun and people unable to recieve medical treatment for covid, falls, RTC, heart attacks, cancer, stroke, flu and anything else. Huge numbers of employees from every sector off sick with covid... meaning shops not properly staffed, distribution and delivery nit at normal levels l, production of goods not at normal levels meaning a lack of goo available even if shops are open. NHS staff off sick meaning the medical care is further compromised. Fire service with staff off sick meaning fires, RTC become more risky to life and property. Police service with staff shortages crime rises with no consequences. Utility companies with staff shortages, cant be maintained or repair problems as quick as normal so people without utility for longer than normal.

Yes lets do that that will be better for the youngsters

All of this. Couldn't agree with you more.

@Croleeen

Absolutely. It's crazy. The average age of a COVID death is 82. The average life expectancy is 81.16. I'm not saying death after 82 doesn't matter. My mum just turned 86. But would she expect us to give up the best part of our lives, going out, travelling, seeing friends, just to give her a couple more years at that age? Absolutely not. Anyone who has watched the David Attenborough documentary saying humans have overrun the planet because we have become too good at combatting disease among other things should realise how ridiculous it is to stifle our economic growth and the happiness of young people to ensure there are as many people kept alive as long as possible. The world has gone mad.

@Croleeen very well said and I completely agree. My mum, along with my aunt and uncle who are the eighties (older than DM) have not shielded throughout. They’ve seen their grandchildren, they feel they don’t want to miss out and let’s face it they have to die of something! Completely their choice to go shopping and go to the pub as family would do all that for them if they wished. They go out almost every day, considering covid is so rife I’m shocked (but glad) they’ve avoided it.

I agree with David Attenborough entirely.

I work in mental health. Two suicides in our population this week, one 22, graduate in a theatre based profession, one late thirties made redundant, kids to support.

Nothing being done to save their lives, plenty being done to save the elderly. The disparity is staggering, not on an age basis but on a physical/mental health basis - the young are suffering huge mental health issues, and yes, so are the elderly - but they don’t seem to be resorting to suicide. They’ve had their lives, their income is fixed, they don’t have dependents, career aspirations, student debt.

Somebody will come along in a minute to contradict that, they’ll know somebody elderly with a debt problem, or dependent adult children. Whatever you say, this is a massive problem and it’s only just now that the suicides are starting in my experience.

I think one demographic is always going to be more adversely affected than another. However it's not as simple as favouring one over another.

The reality is unless you actually talking sacrificing group of people (which is al while different conversation) then we are trying to preserve everyone. The death rate is low because overall we can cope with this illness, but if the disease spreads further through the population then hospitals will struggle to keep up with demand. This time of year hospitals are usually under demand and short on beds from seasonal flu and other diseases, we add Covid to the mix then hospitals are very likely to quickly be overwhelmed.

The solution to stop that is to to try and control the rate of infection in the population so that hospitals can keep up with demand OR we literally decide that certain people are not worth saving, Covid or not and leave them at home to die. Forget your perspective of what Covid is, even if it's a mild flu that people shout about it being, adding another disease into the mix is likely to overwhelmed services, it's very common to for hospitals to close to admissions in certain areas during the winter, the reality is the NHS struggles with winter frequently but adding another disease to the mix increases that pressure. So unless you want to go paint red marks on the doors of patients who are deemed not worth saving then the reality is we need to try and be responsible and not spread the disease.

The reason we don't want the service overwhelmed is that if it becomes that hospitals can only deal with emergencies then all other services will be put on the back burner. Your child breaks their arm at night but A&E is only open 9-5, you are pregnant but maternity has closed, you find a breast lump but cancer services and radiology are shut. Which seems impossible but could be a real reality. I have been referred via a 2 week referral for suspect gynaecological cancer, it may not be, but my liver enzymes are out of whack, I have blood in my urine and pain in other places, I have no waited 8 weeks thus far and my appointment has been cancelled, I'm told I may not be seen this year. I may just have fibroids, in fact that's the most likely, even with a range of conflicting symptoms, but I may be dead before I'm seen. More people will die of non Covid related diseases regardless of the severity of the disease, but introducing a new disease into the population will adversely affect hospital services.

There is also the fact that, at least in my area, we have year groups constantly shutting, businesses closing under the months of strain, we aren't allowed to leave the area, holidays are affected, entire businesses close because the disease spread through the workforce.

I agree that children and young people are having a raw deal, but I think it's horrific to allow suggest that we don't treat those with existing conditions, or who are older, or who are obese, or who smoke, or who are pregnant based on those being the people who are at greater risk.

It's not even about a group of people, like I say, it's about not having business wide shut downs and not having hospitals having to shut.

I don't think any of us are unaffected by this, no matter our age.

@RubyandBen

*I'm 47 YO I've lived through many economic downturns, yes it's shit but it happens. Younger people are more scared by it because they've never been through it* I don't think this is on remotely the same scale and who said the young are scared?

You don't?

I remember the miner's strike, the three day week, blackouts all the time. I remember the massive unemployment, the families literally starving.

You know nothing.

I dont think anyone is saying there shouldnt be restrictions or that we should let the virus run riot through the population.

The OP was asking have the younger generation had to make sacrifices for a virus that disproportionately affects the older generation and the answer is yes.

Well yes to an extent. We are sacrificing the many to protect the few, but who those few are isn't necessarily the elderly. I've had a brush with covid and it was far less of an illness than the cold I currently have, it really was nothing but I'm aware of people my age (late 40's) who have been really sick despite no obvious indicators

Yes, basically. Young people under lockdown have suffered and sacrificed far more than most other groups, especially if you factor in the future economic and social consequences rather than just the disease itself. I’m also concerned about the less tangible effects of lockdown on babies and small children - these have been largely ignored so far but I think we’ll see the knock-on impact on health, wellbeing and cognitive development further down the line when they enter education.

I would add though that, other than the young, the group I feel most sorry for is the elderly and vulnerable in care homes, who have been treated appallingly in all this.

I forgot to mention the riots, crime and despair.

Getting fed up of the narrative that the elderly, clinically vulnerable, and those with underlying health conditions are somehow less valuable than 'the young'.

DD is almost 19. She got Covid and has been bed bound for over 5 months. Prior to that she'd had severe ME since she was 14. She's had a shit life for over 5 years. No school and house bound. Yet somehow the underlying health condition means she doesn't deserve to be protected from Covid.

And her MH is suffering because she can't allow her friends to come and visit. The same friends who have upped and left for uni while she's still housebound, and present higher risk to DD by visiting her. So she's lonely and isolated, sitting at home waiting for it to be safer for her to go out and/or see her friends.

So stop with the boring narrative that we're all making sacrifices for the elderly. It's the young too. And everyone is suffering in some way.

@CrocodileFondue

Well I'm mid-thirties and high risk, but I guess leaving my son without a mother and only vulnerable grandparents in their seventies to care for him is fine then.

As long as your kid is ok.

There is no simple answer to any of this, it's a great big mess all round but it's not as simple as young vs old.

Its also not as simple as just looking at clinically vulnerable v everyone else.

How about those who are vulnerable in other ways? Because of domestic violence or poverty?

Shall we just shoot all the older people? Then you know the rest can have fun? That’s what people are in effect saying.

It’s not about elderly v young. The virus is shit, life is shit, we are all suffering. Everyone’s freedom is being curtailed. But it’s the fault of the pandemic not older people.

My parents are no longer alive. But l would absolutely do everything l could to protect them AND EVERYONE ELSE if they were alive.

The selfishness on here is unreal.

I dont think there is a resounding yes or no answer to this.

I said on another thread the real danger with COVID is that it is the perfect storm of a virus - a fairly high R rate (3-5 I think if left unchecked), coupled with a fatality rate that is high enough to be worrying but not so high, mainly hits the older generation but has enough possible effects for younger generations to be a concern.

But we cannot sacrifice the future and the young, and neither can we let it run unchecked. This is exactly why though in the second wave in Europe we are seeing restrictions but nothing like the first time

And my dd is 14. She hasn’t ‘suffered’ and neither have her friends. She meets her mates outdoors. She’d suffer if her parents or teachers died.

Ds is older. He and his friends are not ‘suffering’ they are getting on with it. Limiting social contact to protect their parents. They have zooms and outdoor meet-ups. It’s different and crap, but they aren’t ‘suffering’

Sacrificed in what way?

The majority of children are at school. Most children missed education from March to July - bearing in mind in England they don't go in during the summer holidays anyway. They will catch up. Universities are open and the students appear to be still partying.

I do think that using the over dramatic emotive language doesn't help the young keep perspective though.

Imagine being a child/young person and those around you catastrophise everything or talk emotively about the young being 'sacrificed' 'losing their education' losing their youth' - all of these things are being said on here daily...... imagine hearing that all the time around you - no wonder some young people have no resilience - they are being told it is doom and gloom and they are sacrificed .... no they aren't. When people hear that language they can become immersed in despair/depression and see the future as bleak - that isn't helpful at all.

Things are different for a bit, social distancing, wearing masks in some places, isolate for 14 days if you have the virus..... it really isn't the end of the world.

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

Thank goodness for parents like you that keep perspective on a situation. It will help children/young people realise that sometimes things can be tough and not to assume utter despair at this current setback

If the average age of death is 82, it doesn't mean everyone who dies is 82! Given that 50,000 have died already it means that 25,000 people who died were younger than that (if average means median here).

You should be angry at the government who have made an absolute shambles of the pandemic.
Can you not see that they are pitting groups against each other, distracting you from their disgraceful incompetence.
They are not prioritising the elderly. They are currently releasing covid patients back into care homes again. They have learned nothing since March!
They don't care about the vulnerable at all, many of whom are young with fairly common underlying health conditions.
They know that if they let the virus rip the NHS will collapse and all those years of chronic underfunding will be exposed.
That would affect all of us, healthy, vulnerable, young and old.

@BonnesVacances I'm so sorry for your DD Sadly it's those like hers the proponents of this narrative conveniently ignore. It seems it's fine if it's about 82 year olds to discount their lives as of no worth, though.

Thankfully my own young adults (20 and 17) do not see it as them sacrificing for a tiny percentage of 'people who were going to die anyway.' they see it fully as simply playing their part along with everyone else in trying to slow this whole stinking mess down in order that health services do not become so overwhelmed that the whole of society will begin to break down (and then what will happen in terms of the much quoted cancer treatment, suicide, poverty etc?) For some baffling reason people seem to think that if we stopped restrictions and shut away 'the vulnerable' then everything would be back to normal in the NHS. It makes no sense at all and I see it daily, as this narrative grows and whiffs ever more of eugenics. Those pesky vulnerable people, hey? If we just got rid of them shut them away, everyone else would be able to just carry on living.

Except Covid doesn't work like that. A considerable percentage of those in ICU are under 60, but that doesn't suit the story, does it?

My dc have suffered. DS missed doing GCSEs and all the stuff of finishing y11. But he is sensible and realises it's a virus and there is no easy answer except to get on with things as best we can. DD is at uni and it's tough there, but she doesn't resent it as something that is only all about saving a few 82 year olds, because she is sensible and compassionate.

I hope your DD feels better soon. She sounds like she's been through such a horrible time

The hyperbole on this thread is unreal- shooting old people?!

I am not for a lockdown, I am for sensible social distancing, masks, good track and trace and keeping parts of the economy going if possible.

Everyone keeps saying the NHS is going to be overwhelmed as if that is just a natural consequence of a virus- it's not, and other countries such as Germany and Nordic countries are not overwhelmed. It is that shit show of an underfunded cumbersome unaffordable NHS we need to be addressing for both old and young because that's what's holding everyone back in this situation (I'm for a social insurance system, same for care homes as well).

Can you not see that they are pitting groups against each other, distracting you from their disgraceful incompetence. THIS!