Are we sacrificing the young to save the elderly?

[RubyandBen]

Reading another thread where someone was accusing the OP of wanting to sacrifice the elderly re CV. But the longer this goes on the more education and the economy are screwed is it actually the other way round?

High levels of youth unemployment contributes to social problems which blight areas and families for decades.
Its not as simple as some like to make out.

• Young people will struggle to find jobs Young people will struggle to move out of their parents' homes Young people's mental health will suffer Young people's physical health will suffer*

But it’s also true to say that these things were an issue long before covid.

I’m not minimising any of these issues but I also believe that covid has simply, horribly, highlighted a lot issues that have been rumbling away underneath the surface for decades. The balance has tipped from affecting a significant minority to affecting the majority.

The economy is taking a shoeing but to expand on the example of the wedding industry - it relies heavily on personal debt. So many people happily take out thousands of pounds in loans/credit to fund their wedding it had always been a fragile industry. Again I’m not minimising because people’s livelihoods are dependent on this cycle but it wouldn’t have taken much to destabilise it - my money was on brexit before all of this - the essentials always fair better than luxuries in any disaster.

No one could have foreseen this particular pandemic and it’s effects but similarly nothing lasts forever and there is always a chance world events are going to take things out of peoples control.

We’re still very much in the middle of an emergency, it’s long and drawn out which we’re not used to dealing with, but when recovery is possible it will happen because that’s what we do. We rebuild. But we can’t force time to move quicker.

My perspective is that I work in an industry which serves other industries so it does give me a good view of what is happening to our cutomers in those other industries. If they are busy, we are busy. They have got back going so we have got back going. I wouldnt say that overall business is booming but it is moving along.

I have a DC at university. On the whole they are finding online learning fine. They go into university for labs but otherwise study is at home. The self motivated will do fine, the ones lacking that will struggle. But that was always the case with higher education.

Hospitality in all its forms has always been the high water mark for the economy. Whether in industry or at home, hospitality has always been the spend which can be dropped quickest. It is a tragedy for the individuals whose businesses suffer as a result.

What the economy cannot afford is for the 90% of the workforce who have not had covid yet get sick and be off for a couple of weeks on top of the normal flu and other bugs which thrive across winter.

The health services cannot afford for their staff to be decimated by covid absences on top of the normal flu absences at the same time as the population gets unwell and needs their services.

@Daydreamsinglorioustechnicolor

High levels of youth unemployment contributes to social problems which blight areas and families for decades. Its not as simple as some like to make out.

We had unemplyment of 12% back in 1984. I was 14 and the prospects for school leavers was not exactly rosy. Unemployment now is around 5% and yes I know will rise but this is temporary. In the 80's university and that whole experience wasn't on the radar for the majority of that generation. It was 2 years on a YTS schem for £30 per week and no guarantee of a job at the end.

It is crap for everyone right now but by ensuring our health service can get us through until the vaccine and treatments are in place is protecting all generations. Mental health is a huge problem and has been underfunded for decades.The situation of a collapsed NHS would lead to such high increases in mental health I don't even want to consider this possibility.

Not all businesses are going under. The hospitality industry is tanking without a doubt but it was overblown. There had already been many business failures in recent years. Business has changed with a huge move to online ecommerce. This means more deliveries, pickers, drivers. Our local supermarket home delivery activity has doubled in volume (ie number of items picked). This has meant more supermarket jobs. The building industry has restarted. Not back to pre-lockdown levels yet but the activity is there. The steel industry is getting going but it had already gone through some huge restructuring. The world of employment has changed, it hasnt ended

Ah, that’s all good then. Skilled jobs in existing industries such as those @AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken mentions being replaced by an ever expanding precariat class of warehouse pickers and Amazon drivers. But as long as as the massively male dominated building and steel industries are ticking over ok...

What are all the displaced women supposed to do in this ‘New Normal’? Or will we all be too busy homeschooling the kids to be able to work?

Those figures seem odd (or is my maths wrong), they only add up to 99.1% what's happened to the other .9%? Where are they from please?

You're right . Apologies. I copied a previous post without double checking the maths.

But the point stands - the death rate is very low, as stated by a study published by the WHO this week.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8843927/amp/Just-0-05-healthy-70s-Covid-19-die-disease-study-claims.html

@mrshoho I'm not convinced it won't be as bad as it was in the 80s.
But I agree with your points. Its such a terrible situation all round.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54570373

This is quite a good straightforward piece explaining the current situation. The only problem though is it has ignored the problem with schools. I can't really see how anyone cannot accept that the sudden rises has to be linked to schools returning.

Just taking our chances and letting people suffer and die without any treatment is not acceptable and that would happen once the hospitals were overwhelmed.

Yes. And my 82yo mother would agree.

Larry

WHO link

“ Acknowledging these limitations, based on the currently available data, one may project that over half a billion people have been infected as of 12 September, 2020, far more than the approximately 29 million documented laboratory-confirmed cases. Most locations probably have an infection fatality rate less than 0.20% and with appropriate, precise non-pharmacological measures that selectively try to protect high-risk vulnerable populations and settings, the infection fatality rate may be brought even lower.”

[quote MrsFrisbyMouse]@BurgerOnTheOrientExpress
I have no idea about the country you allude to.

But

www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/health-and-social-care-spending-cuts-linked-to-120000-excess-deaths-in-england/

www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/aug/opinion-why-did-england-have-europes-worst-covid-figures-answer-starts-austerity

www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14879[/quote]
So you can re-visit your thoughts and contribution to the discussion, the country is Thailand.

You wrote:

‘had we not driven our social system support network into the ground over the last 10 years the death toll may not have been as high as it is.’

Firstly the reference I gave you totally refutes that and indeed shows we are spending a figure in excess of inflation over the last 10 years.

Now, I am just asking you to consider that as one of the most socially funded nations in the world, placed 3rd as a percentage of GDP why you believe social spending to be the main factor.
Just to help you here, Social spending in England for the year 2018 was 28.7% of GDP. Thailand’s was 3.7% of GDP.

Care to answer.

Your post is a politically biased opinion with absolutely no factual basis and goes further to show that even being able to attend school in pre-covid times is of very little benefit to prejudiced minds.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending
blogs.worldbank.org/eastasiapacific/thai-economy-covid-19-poverty-and-social-protection

10 years ago I would have said there is no way someone could earn any money opening toys on YouTube, yet here we are.

Our children will enter the working world that no one can predict. All we can do right now is encourage them to use any time at home as best they can. If you have a young adult encourage online courses if job hunting is proving fruitless, do as much school work as you can if they are out of school. What other options are there right now?

People are drone photographers, which is very new but being used more with estate agents and such like. 3D panoramic adverts will take off I think especially with VR headsets at home.

Green technology will grow.

I know it seems hopeless I really do but encouraging good use of time will help.

@Parker231

Ridiculous statement- No - this has affected everyone- all generations. It is not worse for any one age group.

Why do people say stupid stuff like this when it is blatantly bullshit?

I'm not anti-lockdown or anything, but of course it has affected certain age groups way more than others.

No we are sacrificing to save the many.

I have a 15 and 17 year old so I am acutely aware of how much this whole thing is impacting on their lives, but if my dh or I died from covid that would have a far worse effect.

This is not about protecting over 80s (although they deserve as much protection as anyone else) it's about stopping the ITUs becoming overwhelmed. Over 80s and even over 70s are not in ITU with covid they don't get that opportunity. It's people in their 40s 50s and 60s who are in those ITU beds and there aren't an infinite number of beds to occupy so left to run riot the virus will infect more and more people in that age group who then might not get a bed.

To all the posters who's parents are in their 80s saying they agree, well what about you? You must be in your 40s 50s or 60s so are you ok about not having access to an ITU bed because there's none available if you are unlucky enough to need one? I'm 48 my children still need me so I for one am not.

Businesses are going under. Those businesses will no longer be providing jobs for young people needing employment

The area that has been hit above all else is hospitality. A large proportion of hospitality jobs are designed to be highly proceduralised to take advantage of a large young flexible workplace. They're not so keen on older workers with family commitments limiting the ability to be called in at an hour's notice to cover a shift, and years of experience don't have an overwhelming advantage in jobs where your freedom to act is constrained by procedures.

And don't forget minimum wage is age related - it's cheaper to employ younger people

In this environment, 30 and 40 years olds made redundant will be at a grave disadvantage compared with younger people.

In a war in general many more young (men mostly) were killed than with Covid. With Covid and the young it is mainly economic.
The problem with covid is you cannot get out a white flag and call a truce . To that end some kind of measures have to be taken.
To let it run unchecked would mean more people having treatment
and though most would survive it is costly and can have terrible
cosequences on health later
Even worse are the numbers who will perish due to either fear or the
lack of resources to get help with non-Covid related issues.
Perhaps the real question is Do we sacrifice them for Covid?

40% of those in ICU now are under 60, remember
I'm surprised 60% are over 60 as unfortunately if cases keep rising and get serious among the young it'll be the over 60's removed from ventilation for the young.
Another form of killing the elderly.
Some Northern Ireland hospitals have tripled admission already with covid before winter.

Accept it and get on with life.

I remember back in the 80s when I was in my 20s it was very hard to get onto the housing ladder during the economic boom, but then the recession hit in the early 90s, house prices plummetted (I mean really plummetted) and we were able to buy houses and flats with little problem. Hopefully the same will happen in the near future, and young people will be able to buy.

@BurgerOnTheOrientExpress

I could waste my time trying to actually have a discussion with you. However, casting aspersions on people's level of education as to being the reason for their views tells me how ridiculously futile an experience that will be. So I shall not respond further.

remember back in the 80s when I was in my 20s it was very hard to get onto the housing ladder during the economic boom, but then the recession hit in the early 90s, house prices plummetted (I mean really plummetted) and we were able to buy houses and flats with little problem. Hopefully the same will happen in the near future, and young people will be able to buy

Wouldn’t that be lovely.

And fuck the millions stuck with negative equity.

If anything is sacrificing the young needlessly it's Brexit and a lot of people voted for that. Not sure why it's ok for the young to suffer financially so we can have a black dark blue passport but wrong so that we can curb a pandemic.

@Monty12345

I remember back in the 80s when I was in my 20s it was very hard to get onto the housing ladder during the economic boom, but then the recession hit in the early 90s, house prices plummetted (I mean really plummetted) and we were able to buy houses and flats with little problem. Hopefully the same will happen in the near future, and young people will be able to buy.

Boom and bust. I remember learning this in secondary school. We're definitely in a bust but historically the hardest recessions/depressions follow with huge leaps and opportunities. We're dealing with a pandemic, Brexit, climate change, autonomy of large parts of the workforce, online living at our fingertips. So much change and uncertainty but out of it new opportunities have to come eventually come.

Bornlazy

No we are sacrificing to save the many.

No, we are not. We are sacrificing everything to save very few lives.

We well have economic meltdown with millions of unemployed and a Heath service that’s not fit for purpose.

How about the missed cancer and other illnesses? How about the thousand of routine appointment that are rescheduled? Pregnant women having all midwife appointments over the phone? Some trusts have already cancelling all but the emergency blood tests. Why?

We are sacrificing far too much when we can easily shield the very vulnerable and get on with our lives.

The government, under popular pressure needs to be seen to do something and they are doing the highly visible, so that they can be seen doing something.

They are trying to minimise one risk and fuck about with the rest.