Are we sacrificing the young to save the elderly?

[RubyandBen]

Reading another thread where someone was accusing the OP of wanting to sacrifice the elderly re CV. But the longer this goes on the more education and the economy are screwed is it actually the other way round?

@022828MAN What about the other 0.9% you’ve not accounted for

@larrygrylls Some studies have found up to 80% of cases are mild/asymptomatic. A large proportion of them will not have been tested. That will affect the IFR.

Yes. Well really we're sacrificing 99.03% to save 0.07%.

Either way it's disproportionate and not rational.

This.

It was on the PM briefing yesterday as I recall, but I can't find a transcript.

older reference www.healthline.com/health-news/covid-19-isnt-just-dangerous-for-older-adults

Read;

@BigChocFrenzy and @Guylan above.

They speak sense, whether you want to listen or not.

40% of people in hospital at the moment are under 60
Which means they are seriously ill
& long covid affects younger people predominantly - doesn't it?
As of yet I haven't heard of the up to date figures of those who are still suffering from long covid or severe after affects like strokes, heart lung & kidney problems.
Don't assume that everybody who gets seriously ill is either overweight, elderly or has a underlying known serious health condition. Apparently this is not the case. Also there have been incidents of people catching it a second time & being more severely affected.

Bumbley,

It will, and I dealt with that in my prior post.

The only way you can make the data fit the wishes for IFR is if about 90% are asymptomatic but also get zero immunity.

There is just no real evidence to support this.

@sunflowers246

Yes. Well really we're sacrificing 99.03% to save 0.07%.

Either way it's disproportionate and not rational.

This.

Those figures seem odd (or is my maths wrong), they only add up to 99.1% what's happened to the other .9%? Where are they from please?

Covid is predominantly a problem for the elderly or otherwise vulnerable.

However, being a lung disease (primarily) up to 10% of 50+ and even a significant number of 40+ require hospital treatment.

We don’t have the hospital capacity (or even oxygen!) to treat 10s of thousands of relatively young people with supportive therapy (let alone intensive care).

Even if you are into eugenics (as a surprisingly large proportion of the population clearly are) the above is the problem that necessitates lockdown if we get over a certain number of cases.

I have been to two funerals recently of suicides - both cases the person could not see mental health provision or a GP face to face

I have test results of 14000 people tested within last two weeks because of my job. 8 positives - no symptoms

Be cautious, be safe, but this is absolutely ridiculous now. Our young will suffer and are suffering

What exactly is this great 'sacrifice'?

• students missing out on the essential freshers experience of getting absolutely hammered for a week, having unwise sex with randoms, spending the first week making deep friendships with people they will spend the next three years trying to avoid.
• the student experience isnt all that it was cracked up to be. It never was.
• not having face to face lectures. The lecture has long been known as the most efficent way of transmitting information from the notes of the lecturer to the notes of the student without needing to pass through the brains of either. Online lectures allow students to pause, rewind, go to the toilet, look things up, take a nap.
• formal exams for GCSE and A level are to be decided. But, whatever method is selected all students will be doing the same assessment as each other. So what are students to do to do well? Keep up with coursework, pay attention, do homework on time, learn the subjects. Same as any other year.

www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/
look up oct 20 stats
the figure for admissions in England under 65 is relevant

I don’t feel like I’m sacrificing the young to save the elderly. I haven’t met with my parents in person since I went back to school. I feel I’m making sacrifices the other way round, and my parents are losing out so that children get an education. I think that’s the way round it should be, so long as it actually works for the children. The problem is, I’m now not getting to educate the children or see my parents. It’s the worst of both worlds, because you cannot will this virus away by ignoring it.

@GnomeDePlume

What exactly is this great 'sacrifice'?

• students missing out on the essential freshers experience of getting absolutely hammered for a week, having unwise sex with randoms, spending the first week making deep friendships with people they will spend the next three years trying to avoid.
• the student experience isnt all that it was cracked up to be. It never was.
• not having face to face lectures. The lecture has long been known as the most efficent way of transmitting information from the notes of the lecturer to the notes of the student without needing to pass through the brains of either. Online lectures allow students to pause, rewind, go to the toilet, look things up, take a nap.
• formal exams for GCSE and A level are to be decided. But, whatever method is selected all students will be doing the same assessment as each other. So what are students to do to do well? Keep up with coursework, pay attention, do homework on time, learn the subjects. Same as any other year.

Do people really think this is the extent of how it will affect the younger generations? No nightclubs for a year? Really? Are you so short sighted you don't see how this will impact their employment opportunities? Do you not understand the link between employment and general life outcomes?

Let me make it simple for you,

Businesses are going under
Those businesses will no longer be providing jobs for young people needing employment
The high level of unemployment will mean the job market will be competitive and young people will be up against older people with more experience
Young people will struggle to find jobs
Young people will struggle to move out of their parents' homes
Young people's mental health will suffer
Young people's physical health will suffer

@mumwon so if I have understood correctly most hospital admissions are for working age adults.

Thank you Alltheusernsmesarereasytaken
Exactly my sentiments

@Paddy1234

I have been to two funerals recently of suicides - both cases the person could not see mental health provision or a GP face to face

I have test results of 14000 people tested within last two weeks because of my job. 8 positives - no symptoms

Many of my friends work in the same industry as me (weddings). They're watching their businesses slowly go under. They've spent their entire adult lives building them from nothing. They have families depending on them to provide the roof over their heads, the food in their stomachs and their clothes on their backs. I've spoken to one recently who spoke about their life insurance covering suicide so their families would be "better off" with them dead. I really, really worry about how many won't make it out from under his black cloud.

@GnomeDePlume
Seems so!
Pity more don't read the accurate stats provided by NHS than this argument about sacrifice for a few elderly etc would stop
Yes more elderly die
BUT
the figures for under 65 admissions to hospital are HIGHER & this isn't the Suns figures! So please stop this blame game!

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

Not all businesses are going under. The hospitality industry is tanking without a doubt but it was overblown. There had already been many business failures in recent years.

Business has changed with a huge move to online ecommerce. This means more deliveries, pickers, drivers. Our local supermarket home delivery activity has doubled in volume (ie number of items picked). This has meant more supermarket jobs.

The building industry has restarted. Not back to pre-lockdown levels yet but the activity is there.

The steel industry is getting going but it had already gone through some huge restructuring.

The world of employment has changed, it hasnt ended.

@GnomeDePlume

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

Not all businesses are going under. The hospitality industry is tanking without a doubt but it was overblown. There had already been many business failures in recent years.

Business has changed with a huge move to online ecommerce. This means more deliveries, pickers, drivers. Our local supermarket home delivery activity has doubled in volume (ie number of items picked). This has meant more supermarket jobs.

The building industry has restarted. Not back to pre-lockdown levels yet but the activity is there.

The steel industry is getting going but it had already gone through some huge restructuring.

The world of employment has changed, it hasnt ended.

Ahh so fuck them then. I understand what your perspective is now.

The wedding Industry adds £14 billion to the economy. It was booming. It wasn't overblown at all.
What about the arts? Theatres?

Fuck them all because you still get your amazon deliveries so who cares?

No she didn’t say fuck them, she said that the economy is changing.

But of course lots of businesses are tanking now and it is terrible.

I think the main issue we have is government incompetence.

The countries with very good test track and trace have economies which have suffered a lot less. That’s what we need.

@Overwhelmed222

No she didn’t say fuck them, she said that the economy is changing.

But of course lots of businesses are tanking now and it is terrible.

I think the main issue we have is government incompetence.

The countries with very good test track and trace have economies which have suffered a lot less. That’s what we need.

Businesses are tanking because of COVID not because they're bad business models or the way we live as a society is changing. We're not taking about VHS manufacturers. These are industries that would still be flourishing if COVID hadn't happened.

I would say they are tanking not because of covid, but because of the government’s crap response to covid.

I don’t think they are going under due to having a bad business model or being unnecessary.

But - taking city centre coffee shops that supply people working in offices as an example - some businesses will go under because aspects of life will never be the same - eg more people working from home. This might mean that local areas thrive more, and IMO the city centre food businesses that go under should be supported (by government) to re-locate, or be able to adapt in some way.