Are we sacrificing the young to save the elderly?

[RubyandBen]

Reading another thread where someone was accusing the OP of wanting to sacrifice the elderly re CV. But the longer this goes on the more education and the economy are screwed is it actually the other way round?

@mrshoho We had unemplyment of 12% back in 1984. I was 14 and the prospects for school leavers was not exactly rosy. Unemployment now is around 5% and yes I know will rise but this is temporary. In the 80's university and that whole experience wasn't on the radar for the majority of that generation. It was 2 years on a YTS schem for £30 per week and no guarantee of a job at the end.

Spot on. I dug onions up, picked apples, worked in an apple processing place, and did a 3 month deeply boring placement in a civil service office (dad pulled strings but I was useless). And was unemployed. In the end I started selling door to door just to earn money. I lived. It got better. I moved out at 17 and life didn't end, in fact I got on better with my parents.

And here's another fun fact or two for those thinking that the past was so easy and kids are fucked. At that time we made fuck all money. NO ONE lived alone or in a couple. It was grotty flat shares until you were at least 30. Becoming less grotty but still flat shares. I didn't buy my first flat till my early-mid thirties as I was on my own.

NO ONE had decent stuff or expensive tech. NO ONE had designer clothing or nice makeup. Or takeaway coffee or posh nights out. No one had their parents spend hundreds at their birthday or Christmas. NO ONE had cosmetic treatments. Because NO ONE could fucking afford it.

Seriously the young have got their whole pampered fucking lives ahead of them. A rough year isn't the end for them. It might even be the making of them.

Oh and can I just say that having to survive, the grotty flat shares, the no designer kit, all of it was FUN. There were no expectations. You were free. Everyone was drinking cheap muck and wearing stuff they cobbled together. So I certainly don't feel sorry for myself having that in my youth. Far from it, it was a blast.

Is picking/packing/delivering really being offered as a solution to employment difficulties?

Zero hour contracts with non negotiable overtime. No sick pay, holiday pay?
All shift on your feet whether busy or not?
Every second of your shift analysed by management so staff are afraid to go to the toilet?

Brilliant. That’s a rosey future right there.

The unemployment rate is forecast at 14%

data.oecd.org/unemp/unemployment-rate-forecast.htm

What have the young actually sacrificed in 8 months that will cause them a lifetime of distress ffs, they have their whole lives to get over this and it’s not like they’re dealing with this alone. It’s been a tough year for all, but I think the young, the ones who have their parents to feed, cloth and do most of the worrying for them have it the easiest. Projecting your worries onto your kids is not helpful.

@HelloMissus

Is picking/packing/delivering really being offered as a solution to employment difficulties?

Zero hour contracts with non negotiable overtime. No sick pay, holiday pay?
All shift on your feet whether busy or not?
Every second of your shift analysed by management so staff are afraid to go to the toilet?

Brilliant. That’s a rosey future right there.

I can guarantee it's only thought so by those aren't going to be affected (as far as they assume). Those whose wages will remain the same. Those who aren't facing losing their homes. They're alright, Jack

@HelloMissus

Is picking/packing/delivering really being offered as a solution to employment difficulties?

Zero hour contracts with non negotiable overtime. No sick pay, holiday pay?
All shift on your feet whether busy or not?
Every second of your shift analysed by management so staff are afraid to go to the toilet?

Brilliant. That’s a rosey future right there.

Oh yes. Otherwise known as school leaver jobs in the 80s. I did all of those - it doesn't last long. To say a job you do for a few months is your future is absolute rubbish.

As an employer I look at people who did stuff like that and think good for you. I can't believe this idea that the only job anyone should ever do is a cushy well paid one with job security no matter how shit or lazy you are is being mooted.

So the poor ickle kiddies have to pick fruit? So fucking what? It might get them off the 'gramme for 5 fucking minutes. No bad thing.

we can easily shield the very vulnerable and get on with our lives

So how do we go about doing this if it is so easy? You don't want your kids to live with these restrictions, but you want millions of "other" people to do so. What about their jobs, their families, their mental health?

People who are mid/late career with dependants and no clear way of switching career or making money are the ones we should be concerned about. People who are working hard to retire and who's savings are wiped out.

People who can not recover. Not 'the young' whose whole lives can change overnight. And who have 10+ years to work with.

@bibbitybobbitycats

Ideally I would want weekly testing to allow vulnerable people to have visits from friends and family safely.

But if it is too damaging to mental health to keep some people at home for their own safety, why is it ok to lock everyone up at home?

That is a really good point. If you lose your job at 50+ finding another is hard.

ChardonnaysPetDragon who are the very vulnerable that are so easily sheilded? The people who are in ITU are not necessarily people who were on the previous shielding list. If they run out of ITU beds there will be more deaths. Unfortunately I don't think there is any normal getting on with our lives for a while yet.

I do agree with you about telephone appointments though. I see no reason why GPs and midwifes can't see some people face to face if using PPE. I understand that because of the need for social distancing they can see less people but i think they've taken it too far.

[quote Ecosse]@bibbitybobbitycats

Ideally I would want weekly testing to allow vulnerable people to have visits from friends and family safely.

But if it is too damaging to mental health to keep some people at home for their own safety, why is it ok to lock everyone up at home?[/quote]
No one who is not CEV is locked up at home and never has been. Those who were on the shielding list were asked to essentially lock themselves at home and many did so.

But you still haven't properly answered my questions. What about the vulnerable person's children, their partner or spouse. What if they are single parents? What if they have a job that does not allow them to easily work from home?

@bibbitybobbitycats

Personally I would also offer family members the opportunity to shield.

The vast majority of shielders do not work outside the home so I think this would be an affordable proposal in comparison to shutting the economy.

What else would you call ruining 99.5% of people’s lives to save 0.05%?

[quote Ecosse]@bibbitybobbitycats

Personally I would also offer family members the opportunity to shield.

The vast majority of shielders do not work outside the home so I think this would be an affordable proposal in comparison to shutting the economy.[/quote]
I think you have just made a massive assumption there, but if you have the data to back that statement up please share.

So the whole family unit shields. What about the jobs of those family members? Who will do the shopping? Who will take the children to school? Who will pick up prescriptions? etc etc etc.

@Marriedtodavegrohl - I quite agree with you. The 'young' have years and years ahead of them to make their way and have fun. As you say, perhaps this will be the making of them - perhaps some of them will become entrepreneurs seeing a gap in the market. Perhaps we will see a return to only people who are academically bright going to University, rather than a free for all 3-year partying mentality. Perhaps!

The figures are all here @bibbitybobbitycats
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronavirusandshieldingofclinicallyextremelyvulnerablepeopleinengland/28mayto3june2020#employment-situation-of-clinically-extremely-vulnerable-people

72% of shielders do not work at all and of those that do, many will be able to work from home.

The government should ensure that deliveries of food and medicine are provided reliably.

Oh for goodness sake - not everybody in hospital is over 70 actually if you look at the NHS stats you will see that. Its not just the smaller number of sad deaths. There are far more people who are very sick in hospital & many are working age - that are unlikely to be the most vulnerable because they are being careful. It may the chains & connections with the younger more social active or those who work in factories (& their networks & people they live closely with)
One of the reason that the 1918 flu epidemic was so bad (the other being the standard of medical care, oxygen support & medicine & health & poverty etc) was because they didn't isolate.
Young people at uni & school in a majority may be OK but some won't & not necessarily those who are vulnerable. People can have reaction cykotene storms & some who had it previously may get it again - far worse than before (usually younger people in both cases).
I don't honestly know what we should do but please be aware the young are not being sacrificed just for a few very elderly people who can isolate indefinitely

Oh for goodness sake - not everybody in hospital is over 70 actually if you look at the NHS stats you will see that. Its not just the smaller number of sad deaths. There are far more people who are very sick in hospital & many are working age - that are unlikely to be the most vulnerable because they are being careful. It may the chains & connections with the younger more social active or those who work in factories (& their networks & people they live closely with)
One of the reason that the 1918 flu epidemic was so bad (the other being the standard of medical care, oxygen support & medicine & health & poverty etc) was because they didn't isolate.

Show the stats then.

Cases by age hospital admission by age group and death cases by ag group.

ChardonnaysPetDragon who are the very vulnerable that are so easily sheilded?

Or course it easier to shield a small group, than to restrict the population.

It's not up to me to decide who they are, but I don't see why everybody else should have their lives ruined or on hold.

My parents are in their eighties, with several health conditions. They are also pensioners. People like that are the ones who can shied so the rest can get on with working and living.

@Ecosse

The figures are all here *@bibbitybobbitycats* www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronavirusandshieldingofclinicallyextremelyvulnerablepeopleinengland/28mayto3june2020#employment-situation-of-clinically-extremely-vulnerable-people

72% of shielders do not work at all and of those that do, many will be able to work from home.

The government should ensure that deliveries of food and medicine are provided reliably.

28% is not an insignificant proportion! Not all will be able to work from home, but for the sake of argument let's assume the issues of employment for shielders is sorted then.

Now what about the family member's jobs, and taking the children to school, to activities, appointments etc.?

I am not expecting you to answer these questions! But you said it was easy to shield the CEV instead of us all having restrictions put on our lives, but it isn't. There are no easy answers to this pandemic. If there were, countries all over the world would not be in this predicament. People will suffer and the economy will suffer whatever we do.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

ChardonnaysPetDragon who are the very vulnerable that are so easily sheilded?

Or course it easier to shield a small group, than to restrict the population.

It's not up to me to decide who they are, but I don't see why everybody else should have their lives ruined or on hold.

My parents are in their eighties, with several health conditions. They are also pensioners. People like that are the ones who can shied so the rest can get on with working and living.

And there we have it, ageism with a sprinkling of ableism. Lovely.

Look, I was happy to follow the rules first time round, I'm now happy to wear a mask and to stick to a rule of 6 or whatever.

But that's it, I have do desire to do anything more, and apparently millions more think like me.

Nobody can win in this scenario but I do feel the younger generation are getting a really rough deal.

So many children have missed masses of education and experiences and even the education they are getting is a joke currently.