Is Lockdown generally something favoured by those who are generally left of centre/public sector?

[Treesofwood]

I would say I am definitely left leaning, and am also not in support of lockdowns as a strategy. Infact in some of my dealings on here I have been accused of being pro brexit, hard right. Why would that be? Can you be left wing and pro freedom or are the two actually mutually exclusive? And what does Brexit have to do with any of it?

No but they would have to close them if the staff were unable to work through illness.

Yes, if known infection, illess and/or isolation rates are high enough then that inevitably happens. It's still an assumption that enough people would stop going in of their own volition before that point to damage the economy less than lockdown, though. None of us actually know. What we do know is that in recent months, the population hasn't voluntarily stopped doing these things yet in areas with frankly rocketing infection rates.

How on earth will 2 weeks get the numbers ‘under control’ @herecomesthsun?

We shut down for 3 months and look where we are now. Lockdown is not a long term solution at all. What we need is a working test and trace system.

I'm liberal, work in the public sector (school) and do not think another lock down is the answer.

@ReneeRol

People who've nothing to lose from entire industries being wiped out, support it because they think they're safe from the fallout.

The initial lockdown was necessary because we didn't know what we were dealing with, weren't prepared and certain cultural changes needed to be made to stop the spread. Now that's done, we need to get to a new normal.

One that's conscientious about hygiene and germ spreading. We need to take precautions to protect vulnerable members of society but we must also remember that we are a society. We need common sense and humanity.

It's not OK for cancer patients to not have treatment. It's not OK for vulnerable people to be isolated from family, friends, neighbours and the community. It's not OK to collapse the economy and cause mass poverty.

Far more will die from stress, isolation, poverty, civil unrest and lack of necessary medical treatment than could die from covid if we allow the chicken littles of the world to collapse everything in fear of a virus that kills people who are mostly over eighty.

This argument comes from either disingenuity or ignorance.

Industries are being wiped out...because of our failure to contain Covid. Unlike other countries who took effective measures - and now have functioning societies and economies.

The only people doing well out of failing to take containment measures are the world's billionaires. As confirmed by a report the other day.

That's because the rich can afford to shelter literally and financially from uncontained Covid.

Letting Covid run unchecked really does so much for society and the economy...oh no actually it doesn't - despite the best intents of enthusiastic fascists, who seem incapable of grasping that it won't only be The Others (elderly and disabled) affected. Talk of civil unrest? You wait and see what happens if we keep on failing to get on top of this.

Cancer treatment? How, may I ask? You certainly won't be getting it here - or any other kind of treatment. Unfortunately the hospital beds will be full, and the doctors and nurses and other HCP off sick (some for months). Oh and it would be too dangerous to risk vulnerable cancer patients in wards with asymptomatic patients and staff. It happened just recently in Scotland. Covid spread through a cancer ward.

Meanwhile ignore it or not but Long Covid is real. A significant proportion of the working age population faces long-term disability. Heart, kidney, or lung damage. It can also trigger type 1 diabetes in children and adults, and has caused blood clotting issues. All good for individuals, society, and the economy...or perhaps not.

But these places aren’t the cause of the spike.Schools returning was when the spike started

I don't understand why this is repeated over and again when it just isn't true.

Cases started going up from August 26. If schools have increased the rate it can't have started being measured until about sept 7. Even in the most recent press conference of the scientists they said that schools did not seem to be causing the increase in the infection rate even today.

@Ecosse

How on earth will 2 weeks get the numbers ‘under control’ *@herecomesthsun*?

We shut down for 3 months and look where we are now. Lockdown is not a long term solution at all. What we need is a working test and trace system.

Ask the scientists. Read the SAGE report (the one that the Westminster government ignored). Nicola Sturgeon, unlike Boris Johnson, listened to the experts. Hence why Scotland (and Wales) are quite rightly looking at border restrictions on us infected English.

Oh and we did NOT shut down for three months. We have never had a proper lockdown in the UK. For a start we had unrestricted borders. Hundreds of thousands arrived at our airports during 'lockdown'. No tests, no checks, no quarantine. All were free to head off straight from the airports on to busy public transport...

I'm faaaaaar left and anti-lockdown. So is DH.

Amongst friends and family, all of whom are on the left varying from centre-left to far left, all of them are anti-lockdown now except for one relative I can think of. However prior to the first lockdown, many of these people were pro-lockdown. This included a diverse range of people from public sector workers, young people in rented accommodation, to retired home owners, all of these people are now anti-lockdown. Which is obviously just because they're all now fed up with the kind of life involved in lockdowns rather than any actual rational strategic view point.

I think it's more complex, for a start, "pro lockdown" isn't straight forward. I'm against another national lockdown, but I'm in favour of much stronger restrictions than are currently in place, especially for the areas with most cases. So am I pro or anti lockdown?

Lockdown will help get the numbers under control.

Then we are going to need to be very careful how we open up to manage the situation

March 2020, October 2020... January & June 2021? Rinse & repeat.

@SheepandCow

Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t need to worry about the economy or how she’s going to fund public services. The unemployment that her measures will caías can just be blamed on Westminster.

Boris Johnson has to look at the wide range of lockdown impacts, including how we continue to fund the NHS if no one is paying tax and the suicides and impact on DC’s life chances caused by unemployment.

sheep I know it’s not just you pulling the shifts - but aren’t you all bored?

@Ecosse yes I completely agree. We need a proper non- crony led Test and Trace.

I‘m the typical left wing, veggie, atheist, anti brexit but definitely against lockdown. People that are happy to support it have either been terrified so much that they would support anything in the mistaken belief that it will end the pandemic or aren‘t much affected by lockdown economically or socially. It‘s easy to support something if its not your business that will go under, your job that will be lost, your childcare disrupted or your partner that you can‘t meet.
Basically if you are able to wfh, for example, you can outsource your risk to those members of society that can‘t. Ordering in your shopping relies on all those food warehouse operatives, supermarket workers and delivery drivers being physically present.

@lljkk

Lockdown will help get the numbers under control.

Then we are going to need to be very careful how we open up to manage the situation

March 2020, October 2020... January & June 2021? Rinse & repeat.

Alternatively one proper (and therefore effective) lockdown. Short but strict - and here's the key...Restricted Borders excepting food etc imports (proper quarantine for essential travel). Keep borders shut after lockdown eases. Add in a properly functioning test, track, and trace system, and Bob's your uncle. Containment achieved. The travel industry is buggered short-term either way. At least this way we'd get to save all the other industries. Everything open again. Schools, shops, hospitals, offices, pubs, restaurants, bars, clubs, gyms, hairdressers, entertainment and sporting venues. We could've been open by Christmas had we done it in August. It's not too late to salvage the new year. Yet.

Or we just continue as we have been for the last 8 - 9 months for another year.
On off on off whinge whinge we can't we can't we can't dragged dragged very dragged out confusing different rules across the regions (despite people living and working across boundaries).
Our choice.

@SheepandCow

We had a 3 month lockdown where even the government were shocked by the high level of compliance. Thousands of businesses closed even though the government never asked them to.

COVID will not disappear in 2 weeks any more so than it did in 3 months.

@HelloMissus

sheep I know it’s not just you pulling the shifts - but aren’t you all bored?

I'm on my own tonight. Not bored. A bit hungry but don't worry, I have some chocolate.

I don't think it's a case of left v right. Certainly middle class New Labour types are very pro 'letting it rip' (and to hell with the consequences) because they don't themselves live in high density inner city housing except a few who are still young and healthy

Yes the most enthusiastic voices against taking any containment measures are the very rich very right wing (because they can afford the risks) - but this issue is not a simple neat political divide.

No. It's more foresight v short-termism.

It's more foresight v short-termism.

I see it like that too but I see knee-jerk lockdowns as the short-termism.

Nice little dig about Labour voters there though, and utterly contrary to my experience. Most of my friends list is left wing and they emote greatly about lockdown and saving lives.

For me, the main issue is that it will not be a 2 week lockdown. It will end up going on for ages. Lifting lockdown is harder than starting it. The day the lockdown starts the media will immediately start ranting about a lockdown exit strategy just like they did back in April. I could write the script now.
Remember Keir back in May demanding Boris gives a full exit strategy? That is exactly what he will do this time too.
There will be huge disagreements at the end of the two weeks as to whether it should be one more week, over and over again. Some will still want more lockdown, some won’t ad infinitum in a never ending argument.
I would rather see Consistent tighter restrictions like now For the next 6 months than in / out of lockdown. The media will get bored, the newscycle will turn as it always does.

[quote Ecosse]@SheepandCow

We had a 3 month lockdown where even the government were shocked by the high level of compliance. Thousands of businesses closed even though the government never asked them to.

COVID will not disappear in 2 weeks any more so than it did in 3 months.[/quote]
@Ecosse I'm talking about England. You might be referring to somewhere else.

Personally I'd opt for proper containment measures. Short-term hardship in return for long-term gain. However, the SAGE report - scientific experts (who have more knowledge and expertise in this area than the Westminster MPs) explains how even 2 or 3 weeks will help immensely.

We, the UK (particularly England) have never had a proper lockdown. We had completely unrestricted borders. Hundreds of thousands of international arrivals passed through our airports with no checks or quarantine.

One proper lockdown - and, like other countries who took effective containment measures - we'd be largely back to normal by now. Many more businesses are closed or face closure now precisely because we didnt do things properly.

Like I said. The countries who took effective containment measures now have healthy functioning economies.

Oh yay public sector bashing time again. I work in public sector and we've been making staff redundancies for almost 2 years now. Endless cycle. Might not make the news much but its been going on.

And who exactly in oxalic sector do u want to see redundancies in? NHS? Teachers? Police? Council? Civil servant in departments?

At least be specific instead of giving a broad brush.

Not to forget because of unions lost redundancies require 90 day consultations so they are always immediate.

If you hate working private sector and think we all have it so cushy come join us then, take a the pay cut ull have to take cos salaries are much lower.

Where I work there is no illusion that staff cuts are coming its a question of when not if.

This started as a very interesting and supportive thread, it's a pity it's been derailed into yet another round-and-round of whether or not lockdown is a good thing.

It was nice to just read about how people actually feel about it, and how disaffected many of us feel that we suddenly are not on the same page as "our tribe" and how alienating and disconcerting that is.

@MaxNormal

It's more foresight v short-termism.

I see it like that too but I see knee-jerk lockdowns as the short-termism.

Nice little dig about Labour voters there though, and utterly contrary to my experience. Most of my friends list is left wing and they emote greatly about lockdown and saving lives.

Not all Labour voters are New Labour. But - there's nothing wrong with being a middle-class New Labour supporter. It wasn't meant as a dig. More a statement of fact. I'm not a fan of Blairism myself (his war on the disabled) but I know New Labour voters aren't automatically Bad People - just because of how they voted. Then again I don't like tribalism and fitting people neatly into rigid boxes.

I think the issue is the definition of lockdown? I wouldn't say Australia and New Zealand opted for knee jerk measures. Nor Japan, Taiwan,. Singapore, South Korea etc.

They chose to take effective containment measures, using their foresight - and consequently 8 - 9 months on, their lives are largely normal and their economies healthier than ours.

We need to do the same. Proper containment measures. Or face another 8 - 9 months of this dragged out mess. Staying on this dragged out half hearted measures here and there on and off selected regions division and confusion rinse and repeat road has been dreadful all round. It's going to be economically devastating.

Strict but effective (and therefore ultimately shorter) restrictions would be worthwhile - and the lesser of two evils

For it to work, we'd need restricted borders AND a fully functioning test, track, and trace system. We can do it. Lots of other places have.

@diggadoo

I have older relatives who were UKIP voters and they are passionately in favour of lockdown

They won't be impressed with Nigel then. He's been very outspoken against containment measures.

@MaxNormal

This started as a very interesting and supportive thread, it's a pity it's been derailed into yet another round-and-round of whether or not lockdown is a good thing.

It was nice to just read about how people actually feel about it, and how disaffected many of us feel that we suddenly are not on the same page as "our tribe" and how alienating and disconcerting that is.

I don't know. We've very clearly learned from this thread that's it's not a left vs right thing. It's been interesting to see how it cuts across political (and generational) groups.