Rule breakers- do you not worry about passing the virus to older relatives?

[Chaotic45]

I see more and more mumsnet posts and comments IRL from people sick of the rules, and saying that they will not be following them.

Lots of people are saying they will visit their parents and grandparents even where this means breaking a rule or law.

I do understand why they feel like this. It's not my approach, but I accept that we do all have the right to make our own choices.

What I don't understand though, is why these people are not afraid of unwittingly passing Covid to their relatives? DH and I are extremely careful, but DS is 14 and in a bubble of 200+ kids in his school year. There is no social distancing within his bubble, so we are effectively in a bubble with 200+ families and completely at the mercy of their choices and their luck or bad luck in catching and passing on the virus.

So if I choose to see relatives, especially indoors I feel I do have a risk of passing Covid onto them and arguably being the cause of them becoming extremely unwell or even dying. I wouldn't be able to forgive myself for this.

Do those breaking the rules not worry about this?

My dad aged 98 died of it. The care home had done everything to keep it secure but someone must have walked it in? He had dementia but no other underlying problems. I wasn't allowed to see him in the home from March till May when he passed.
It's sad I wasn't with him when he passed away and that hurts a lot. How care homes were treated is also awful.
I've no idea anymore how I feel about it all now. People will continue to break the rules and local lockdowns won't work that well whilst pubs and schools are still open.
Who can blame people for breaking rules really? It's an impossible situation isn't it?
Plus so many covid deniers too.

For many elderly people the lack of activity, socialisation and stimulation in lockdown has been as bad as the risks of the virus. In the elderly it's often 'use it or lose it'.

A family member in his eighties who was incredibly fit and well, playing golf and bridge several times a week and going to the gym too has been visibly diminished by lockdown. He's frail and a shadow of his former self. He's made the decision to mix, preferring to see family and friends and risk infection. I think I would do the same.

"@YellowHighlighterPen*

Tomorrow I will break the rules to see a relative who has had an awful few years. I won't go into details because they're outing. That relative is feeling very low and is having a milestone birthday- older than 70. I'm concerned about their mental health.
We're both in area with extra restrictions. I will be driving to their house less than 30 minutes away. I'll be waving through their window.
Is that actually against the rules if they are inside and you are outside?

Are you not allowed to visit this person because you are providing care/support to a vulnerable person anyway?

Can you form a support bubble with this person or do they not live alone?

I let my older relatives make their own decisions - if they want to and are happy to see me it's their decision.

I'm breaking my first rule tomorrow. My 86 year old nan is coming for the day. She nearly died in lock down and I thought I would never see her again. She is SO desperate to see my kids. They are at preschool and I'm terrified of the consequences but she is more worried about making us sick than the other way round. I just hope to god I'm doing the right thing

Because my parents are actually more likely to pass it to us than us to them.
DH and I meet very few people. One supermarket trip a week, occasional trips to town if needed (say, once a month). Kids are both in 30 bubbles at school.
Meanwhile, my 67 year old mother is still volunteering where she always has, inside, meeting 15-20 different people a say. My 72 year old father is desperately trying to keep his business and 10 other jobs going, again involving many trips to many different places. They are going to the pub and eating out in restaurants, and meeting friends in groups of 6. Why wouldnt we see them?

but i do think someone close to them just needs to tactfully explain that if they get covid they may die, they may die on a ward surrounded by strangers in PPE, that they may not get the funeral that they hoped for, and if they still decide to carry on with life, then fair do’s to them, they are braver than me

Imo, that’s a patronising attitude to take - that grown adults need the obvious pointing out to them! SIL died in March in a hospice, not of Covid, on her own. The staff had already pointed out to the family not to feel guilty if it were to happen, because it often happens - a relative might only pop out to the toilet or for a sandwich; and the patient dies; as if they were waiting to be on their own?

As for the funeral, who cares when they are dead - it’s for the friends and family to show their respects, celebrate a life, a formal recognition of the passing, whatever!

If I were elderly, given the choice I'd probably take the risk of catching covid to see my children/grandchildren. Obviously not everyone will feel that way but these people are adults and can decide for themselves what risks they're happy with

Is it that simple? If hospital beds are taken up by the elderly, what happens when the virus hits someone, say, aged 45 who could have been saved but the system is so overloaded, decisions can’t be made quick enough or we are back to the situation where people are left at home as long as possible?

It is not just elderly people who are vulnerable. Many vulnerable adults are people with children, and many of them would go on to lead productive lives regardless of whatever is making them vulnerable at this time to this virus. The actions of all of us have an impact, potentially, on these people not just the elderly.

If, to be a humane human, one has to break a rule, maybe there is something wrong with the rule rather than humanity.

@Jrobhatch29
I am so sorry for your loss and it is awful that you and your dad can't even see each other for comfort.

I was extremely anxious about passing it on to my parents And tried refusing to see them but then they gave me a good talking to / telling off as they happily went about breaking the rules from August- although one of them had been shielding previously. Shielding had been so hard on my mother’s mental health - that with a re occurring condition ( which was why she was shielding) she would prefer to LIve NOW than have more “dribbly years”. My father in his 80”s days that maybe Covid would balance out The boomer society- and in a few years he might not to be able to do what he can do now. He also has quite firm views on care homes as his idea of ending up in one is his idea of hell - he would prefer to be dead especially after supporting both his parents whilst in them.

I do my best to not get too close etc and not see them to often but then they just pop in to see dc 🤯😡😂

I'm not purposely breaking the rules but I'm probably a bit lax with social distancing, I don't tend to keep 2m away when I'm walking past someone for instance.

I don't have any elderly relatives apart from my grandad and I usually meet up with him in his garden.

@frozendaisy

There is a difference in rule breakers and people bending the one rule to see elderly relatives.

What is this difference, and how come they're bending a rule not breaking it?

It’s not just the elderly that need to worry though.
My next door neighbours 19 year old dd has been socialising, going to house parties etc, she tested positive just over a week ago and just has a bit of a temperature.
2 nights ago an ambulance arrived and took her dad age 50ish to hospital he’s now in a coma in ICU..
the screams coming from the house after he left will haunt me for a long time.

I think it’s a good question OP and a good discussion. My parents said they wanted to see us. They watch the news etc and thought that it was worth the risk. But what they didn’t understand was that the dc were mixing with hundreds of other children at school. They thought that being “Covid secure” meant that they would always be 2 metres away from any other person.

After I explained, they have decided we will only meet outside. Do all your relatives really understand what is happening in schools?

I thought in most places in England two households are allowed to mix to as long as theres not more than 6 people you won't be breaking the rules seeing your parents???
I can't keep up!
Anyway people over 70 are often perfectly capable of making their own decisions so its not a one way street.
I think many just want to enjoy the rest of their lives and see their families and benefits outweigh risks, particularly if virus is going to be around for a while.

It isn't against the law too see terminally ill family members. It's included in the list of exceptions and should be better publicised.
People already living in distressing circumstances should not have to feel they're breaking the law by seeing their dying relatives. They should also not be prevented from what is the only humane thing to do in this situation by poor communication of what is allowed and by terrifying people with threats of fines.

During lockdown we were good, we didn't go visiting anyone, we stayed at home and kept our distance from everyone. My mum was pretty badly affected by not seeing us or her grandchildren for months on end, its made her really anxious that all of her children and grandchildren are going to fall out of touch with her and each other permanently even though we all live within like 2 miles of each other and that is never going to actually happen! She isn't elderly really, only in her mid sixties but she doesn't want to sit hiding in her house and not seeing anyone any more, life's already miserable enough with her Parkinsons, and cases have always been low where we are.

From here in a stricter regulation area,
www.gov.uk/guidance/north-east-of-england-local-restrictions
If under different restrictions, please check those, it may put your mind at rest of you're already making a judgement call on whether the risk of harm of isolation is greater than the risk of covid.

Gatherings within indoor settings, as well as your home or garden can still take place for specific purposes set out in law:

where everyone in the gathering lives together or is in the same support bubble

to attend a birth at the mother’s request

to visit a person who is dying

to fulfil a legal obligation

for work purposes (see guidance on working safely in other people’s homes), or for the provision of voluntary or charitable services

for the purposes of education or training

for the purposes of childcare provided by a registered provider and informal childcare as part of a childcare bubble

to provide emergency assistance

to enable one or more persons in the gathering to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm

to facilitate a house move

to provide care or assistance to a vulnerable person

to continue existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children where the children do not live in the same household as their parents, or one of their parents.

@Thanksitsgotpockets

It isn't against the law too see terminally ill family members. It's included in the list of exceptions and should be better publicised. People already living in distressing circumstances should not have to feel they're breaking the law by seeing their dying relatives. They should also not be prevented from what is the only humane thing to do in this situation by poor communication of what is allowed and by terrifying people with threats of fines.

Couldn't agree more. And I'd add that the poor communication is often coming from other people as well as the authorities. If everyone could just shut the fuck up about regulations until they've read and understood them, we'd all be much better off.

I think you can assess the risk and so many of the restrictions seem pointless now, or even make things worse.

DS was at the pub the weekend the early closures came in. 6 of them, in the garden across 2 tables. When they left at 10pm, they went to the garage and bought more beer to take back to one of their houses. I'd have far rather they stayed in the pub.

I am a rule follower but am feeling increasing stupid for complying and confused by what they're trying to achieve or how they will do it.

I mean, during the main lockdown, I did my one form of exercise daily and had to choose between a run alone or a walk with the family. Really, how would anyone's risk have increased if I'd done both, although at the time you had people bleating about neighbours who went out more than once?

Currently we aren't in an area with extended restrictions. I'm working and DS is working with the public, DH is recovering from Cancer treatment. Yes, I'm worried, but really how is his risk increased if I hike in a group of 7 rather than 6 or if DS has drinks with the people he's been working with?

Mmm, there doesn't seem to have been much thought about restrictions potentially incentivising more dangerous behaviour. The pub as you mention is one example. Another is the potential banning of all socialising with other households in some areas, full stop. That means there's now a stronger incentive to meet indoors, where it's less safe, in order to minimise the amount of time you're visible breaking the rules. Ie if you're sitting in your mum's garden, the neighbours can see you for the duration, whereas if you sit in her living room with the curtains drawn they'll only see you go in and out. The police are not going to be able to prevent this behaviour and telling people they need to stick to the rules clearly doesn't work.

The thought of holding my new baby and her first grandchild is the only thing keeping my grandmother going.

I gave my elderly relatives the choice. When they visited they chose to come in my house and when we visited them they invited us in.

I am a rule breaker in that I hugged my friend who I haven't seen in a long time and travelled a fair bit to see me (more than likely his area will go into lockdown at some point). I also work as a Nanny in two different homes where I can't socially distance from the children so I see myself as a risk anyway (my friends knows this and wanted to hug)

So If I go to my elderly grands house I specially distance, wear a mask etc.