We may have to give up more to keep them open

[notevenat20]

From the BBC quoting Ferguson this morning

"We think that infections are probably increasing, doubling every two weeks or so, in some areas faster than that, maybe every seven days," he said.

The former government adviser said the "most important" measure to drive down infections was reducing contact between households.

He said schools should be kept open, but "we may have to give up more to keep them open"."

Can we give up any more?

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

And l do think there’s an element of ‘I’m all right Jack’ on this thread as ‘l live in an area of low infection’ so there’s no problem.

I do absolutely not believe that there's no problem for one minute. I'm very lucky and grateful that the numbers are relatively low where I live.

But I'm in no doubt this is an issue because the number is rising, even if slowly.

Not at all about 'I'm alright Jack'

We could pay the restaurants, pubs, gyms etc to stay closed. We could afford it by giving up the HS train line, or scrapping trident, or taxing companies like Boots and Amazon properly. We could make people pay their taxes instead of hiding them in off shore accounts. Then none of the small business owners would have to lose their lives due to financial collapse. We could do it. We just choose not to.

As for all the people saying that their need to go on holiday or get cosmetic surgery is ‘just’ as important as a child getting an education- shame on you.

Education is important, that's why we've all made sacrifices for it but I'm not ok with losing everything I have just so we keep the schools open

Primary schools are not the issue. Closing them or making them part time will not aid other areas.

The infant school near me has several cases that have Been spread in-school. Primary/infant are less of a problem but they are still contributing.

@Snoringferret

* They can shut gyms, pubs and restaurants to try and keep schools open. I've managed to go without since Feb. I just want the dc's educations to scrape through to next summer.*

The thing is we actually need a balance of things.

I don't have children, and though I obviously understand the importance of education I don't really see why I should give up my entire life for it.
My business is scraping by as it is, if it's shut again everything I've worked for for the past 10 years will be gone. I already live in a local lockdown area so I can't see any friends, family or enjoy any social life.

Education is important, that's why we've all made sacrifices for it but I'm not ok with losing everything I have just so we keep the schools open.

Why can't we blended learning? Or come up with a solution that doesn't involve tanking everything else.

@Snoringferret I agree with you completely and I have children.

Children are going to suffer worse if their parents lose their livelihoods and can't afford to put food on the table or a roof over their heads.

I'm glad my DC are back at school but I'm not entirely impressed with the 'business as usual' approach the school have taken with regards to education as I think it's putting too much pressure on pupils and parents, who are all tired, stressed, and suffering with their mental health. I would have preferred more focus on wellbeing for the children, teachers and families. Blended learning for some would have worked better. It's a nightmare because I know people rely on school for childcare too, there are no easy answers to this. But I don't believe it's acceptable to think people should trash their livelihoods for schools to remain open. Adult mental health is also important. It's so tough because for different people, including people with children, that means different things.

Education is important and I don't know what the answer is for older secondary pupils, who I feel so so sorry for right now. But for younger pupils, there would be time to catch up, the curriculum can be adapted (and should be overhauled anyway). The problem is I have no faith in the department for education to respond to this successfully.

Primary schools are not the issue. Closing them or making them part time will not aid other areas.

I hope that's true but if they aren't an issue why are we having this conversation? Why would we need to close anything to keep them open if they aren't an issue in the first place?

It’s better to look at the data Emoji listen to R4 at 8.14am for Professor Semple who goes over school data. If you disagree with his scientific analysis that’s fine of course but it could be useful.

@Snoringferret

Primary schools are not the issue. Closing them or making them part time will not aid other areas.

I hope that's true but if they aren't an issue why are we having this conversation? Why would we need to close anything to keep them open if they aren't an issue in the first place?

Because data is just being collated. I only heard update this morning. And whilst people are not sure it’s natural to speculate based on what they see. Plus people are worried understandably.

I agree that primary schools are spreading less! But it’s still happening.

@CarrotInATree

Pubs, gyms etc are mostly barely covering costs at the minute anyway. It’s not the restrictions, it’s the virus. A majority of people are sensible and make decisions to limit their risk by not going to pubs, cinemas, gyms or by radically reducing the number of places they go. It’s the virus that is causing most of the lost income, not restrictions. Personally I think of it as having a sort of risk budget. We use up most of our household risk budget on two kids in school and they attending things like swimming lessons. They can stop the extra curricular stuff if that’s necessary (and I kept paying for their classes through lockdown, to and would do again to minimise the impact on small business). But I will be pissed off if keeping Wetherspoons Open is prioritised over keeping schools open and older people safe.

Just to say I completely agree with the household risk budget idea - that's exactly how we see it! Two kids in school is our allowance pretty much used up so we get takeaways, don't see other households other than the kids see other kids from their bubble at school, don't use gym etc. We are both still paying for the gym because we want it to be there at the end of this and we get takeaways because we also want our local restaurants to survive. I really miss seeing my friends but my kids need to be in school more than I need to see them, if that makes sense. The mental health cost of this shitshow in some children has been extraordinary - we wont really see the effects properly for years but I suspect a number of them will have been very severely affected by their whole words collapsing overnight in March.

If we had a better understanding of risk management as a country, we would find this easier to handle I think. Nothing is risk free; everything is a choice and everything has consequences. It is really, really difficult (my parents and sister are all in the north west, so I know how bad things are there even though we are in the south) but I also believe that this will come down to the individual choices we all make and we have to take some personal responsibility for those. Otherwise we are just relying on this useless, incompetent government for guidance.

Snoring you appear to be forgetting that secondary schools exist and there's a definite problem there.

Snoring you appear to be forgetting that secondary schools exist and there's a definite problem there.

I'm not forgetting anything I was replying to a specific statement about primary schools.

@DBML love it

And yes, true. We are all paying tax now and could argue that children need our generation to keep working now in order to pay for their births, medical care, education, benefits etc....

I live in an area heavily reliant on tourism and hospitality. The danger of having high levels of unemployment here (in Cornwall) where there aren't the millions of other industries, poor infrastructure etc will be more damaging for children here than a bit of disrupted education.

Schools have to stay open, it's not "just" their education that's the priority, it's the safeguarding. Domestic violence has gone up and that'll include children. Professionals get sight of children at school - they pick up on neglect when no one else might. Many children are safer out of the family home and had to spend five months plus stuck with abusers.

Adults suffer too of course but we as a society do and should prioritise the needs of children.

Food bank use is high so a meal at school might be the only time a child gets fed - who knows what happens to the vouchers or packed lunches sent home in lockdown.

Children at home - who looks after them? Jobs lost or at risk. Yes schools aren't babysitters but if there weren't schools lets be honest no woman/parent would ever hold a job down. Again that's an adults problem but fuelling poverty and long term disadvantage.

And being in school 99% of the time was considered so very important for all these reasons, for the last decade, especially in terms of averting profound and long term disadvantage that draconian fines were considered reasonable if you even took your child out for one day. That policy won't wash now. Children were thrown under the bus in March and I sincerely hope the government supports schools more so they can continue to attend.

I am astonished the needs of pubs and restaurants are considered a priority at at all at this time far less something that has to be "balanced" with the needs of children.

It's like saying (e.g.) social workers can't do visits but you can visit a kebab shop - how on earth is that reasonable? Of all the priorities to balance (and I know there are no perfect solutions, livelihoods are at stake everywhere) - but schools have to come first. With additional support for teachers and pupils to keep everyone safe and supported.

Those who object to schools being open obviously do not have children or have younger children. I have a daughter in year 11 and if is not looking great that she will get the grades she deserves. My ex is a head of education and I know social services referrals had gone up 400% in lockdown and we live in an affluent area.

I agree, schools need to stay open. If people actually stopped socialising, as being asked, then it probably would work in slowing down the infections. No one wants to stop seeing their family, I get that, especially when mental health issues are so high right now. I've stopped seeing my family (which also isn't great for my mental health or my children who miss their grandparents immensely!) but I hate the thought of the chance of giving covid to my parents. I don't think I'd recover from that.

if we cant travel more than 5 miles that rules out a lot of people going to school anyway.

we can do more - we can enforce the social distancing rules which we dont, we can enforce masks which we dont - half the people in shops dont wear, or wear under nose straight fines for non compliance (no faffy excuses, no warnings just straight fine )
and people would comply - that would be a great start

It's so important to keep community levels low. There's lots of mask refusers/ covid denial around here and that's not helping.

I would welcome blended learning in secondary schools too (DS is in secondary). He wants to go to school and full lockdown was hard for him, but the reality is that with full classes it's impossible for him to social distance in school, we're in a local lockdown area and there's been 8 cases in his school already. I'm clinically vulnerable and worried sick every time he goes in. Blended would mean social distancing would be possible, therefore lots safer when he's in. And because teenagers spread it in the same way as adults it's a reasonable suggestion clinically too. It also doesn't cause the level of childcare issues that blended for primary schools does. There's issues with it of course and no perfect solutions, but a balance needs to be found between education and health, there's workarounds they could look at for the issues, eg they could still offer full time for vulnerable/key worker kids as they did through lockdown, or make sure all kids have the tech and internet access they need to access remote learning for part of the week.

Something needs to be done though to manage the level of cases in schools and improve school safety, in addition to the community measures being taken. I really feel for school staff who I know are doing their absolute best in very difficult circumstances.

... And yet was pointed out last week that even at the start of it all... March... Right through to July with the peak, never did it double each week after week.

My husband is a scientist... And he said the chief scientist advising the government should be sacked.

If we had a better understanding of risk management as a country, we would find this easier to handle I think.

That conversation is not happening. Which Frustrates me too. Not sure most people can understand, how many future harms are hurtling along at us, and what the trade-offs could be. Maybe not if the vaccine is great and if the interest rates still low and if there are no more huge crises in next 10 years and ... If If If...

I am very good at delayed gratification. Relevant because I keep thinking about future harms and how they might weigh up compared to (virus control->fewer deaths) present benefits. Maybe people like me are irrelevant. Irk.

Those who object to schools being open obviously do not have children or have younger children

I don't think anyone objects to schools being open. Just being kept open at all costs and no other section of society considered.

I’m really concerned about my local primary. There seems to be a lot of movement across the ‘bubbles’ with TA’s and teachers covering other sessions.
I think one case may very quickly spread across the ‘bubbles‘. With the way infection rates are going I think it’s more of a ‘when’ than ‘if’

I’d give up a lot to keep the schools going but I’m already feeling the effects mentally. More of the same for the next 6 months is a terrible thought.

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince exactly... Loads of unnecessary things could close back down to enable children to still be able to attend school.

We are a vulnerable household. My primary age children learnt a lot during lockdown and I enjoyed homeschooling. I dont work full time and am frustrated that there is no compromise position. I dont want to lose my school place long term but if people like me were supported to teach at home it could take some of the pressure off the system.

Our children’s future and education can’t be sacrificed and that’s it. While the pubs stay open, restaurants etc it shouldn’t even be a conversation.