We may have to give up more to keep them open

[notevenat20]

From the BBC quoting Ferguson this morning

"We think that infections are probably increasing, doubling every two weeks or so, in some areas faster than that, maybe every seven days," he said.

The former government adviser said the "most important" measure to drive down infections was reducing contact between households.

He said schools should be kept open, but "we may have to give up more to keep them open"."

Can we give up any more?

@Augustbreeze

Government and scientists back in the summer said that pubs may have to close to allow schools to stay open.

We could return to a lockdown situation but schools could still be open this time. If they can find enough well staff.

What would be the point of closing pubs now? Especially with the curfew. The vast majority of pubs apply the rules stringently, take that away people will just socialise at home.

We just have to accept if we want schools fully open cases will stay high.

Of course, there's a school of thought which suggests heavily shielding the vulnerable for a set finite period of time, and allowing the virus (which of is overwhelmingly NOT serious for younger generations) to do its thing and run its course. After this period is up there will be a large reservoir of immunity.

This isn't a crackpot theory. It has been recently described in detail by Sunetra Gupta among others, all experts in their field. And she's far cleverer and more knowledgable than most of us.

I have feel uncomfortable closing business down to keep school open when some teachers are closing windows and doors, and asking students to take coats off.. And or, schools and teachers saying its a waste of energy to have the windows open and the heating on.

We are in an absolute crisis. For one season we need to do what we can!

Belle I don't think anything should close!

I don't want to comment about blended learning in secondary school as mine are primary aged.

I know going back to the spring would be very hard for us as a family due to DH working out of home and me working in home.

But ultimately we would manage, just like we did in spring and the kids would do what they needed.

We are a lot more fortunate that most though.

Schools need to be given priority and kept open at all costs. Let’s prioritise our youngest vulnerable and dependent members of society from now on. They are not at risk, have sacrificed enough and are our future.

School staff are at risk. Does 'all costs' mean deaths of school staff? Just so I can judge how my life is valued by the general public.

What about those on zero hours in leisure, hospitality, the arts, any of the services sectors?

Currently many of them look screwed. We are not choosing between good options. The question is which option causes the least damage to the country.

To be honest I can't see theatres being full no matter what they government does. It's the pandemic that has killed theatre.

Transmission is happening in care homes, universities and schools.

Transmission is not happening as much in gyms, restaurants or at the pub.
So why would you need to give these things up?
If you stop going to the gym, it’s not going to help the situation in a school is it.

Children do spread and suffer with this virus. That much is becoming very clear. ‘COVID Secure’ simply means, grab a bit of hand wash on your way into the classroom. Unfortunately we have two options, let it spread or shut schools down again.

Personally, I’m ready to just get on with it now and take my chances, but I’m fortunate to be in good health (to my knowledge) and I’m sure I would feel differently if I wasn’t.

I just don’t see the point in giving up anything else to keep schools open, when those places aren’t the source of spread.

I don’t go to pubs, but I enjoy eating out and go to the gym daily. I would NOT be happy to give up those things to keep a school open, knowing that COVID is likely to spread there regardless.

School staff are at risk. Does 'all costs' mean deaths of school staff? Just so I can judge how my life is valued by the general public.

It's not clear to me that teachers are getting covid at a higher than other people their age. If that turns out to be the case then we have another massive problem to deal with.

I doubt blended learning would scratch the surface if you weigh up against arts etc

The balance is correct atm and I wouldn’t close anything further. Whether it can be maintained is another thing.

The problem unfortunately is that no matter what is done some will be worse affected than others. There is never going to be a solution that does not disadvantage someone.

If schools are totally closed for example and no household mixing is allowed then DD and I will have no social contact except with each other. DD has SN so she may still be allowed to go to school but will have none of her friends there so her social contact will be minimal. One of the issues she has relates to socialising with other children so even though she might be getting a basic education she will suffer in other ways.

Equally if a child has a parent who works in the hospitality industry or an industry which could be closed down to keep schools open and that parent loses their job that could result in problems at home and will also have a detrimental effect on the child.

There is no easy answer and I think we really need to take a long hard look at how effective the existing measures really are. The Test and Trace fiasco shows how poorly the whole thing is being managed.

It is very difficult to have a rational discussion about it at the moment because any questioning of the measures in place is often met with an accusation of not caring about the vulnerable or being responsible for thousands of deaths.

All I do know is that we cannot go on the way we are going indefinitely or there will be no opportunities left for the children for whom the schools are being kept open.

@Timeforanotherusername I’ve never said I’m not but I’m trying obviously unsuccessfully to see the wider picture.

Schools need to be given priority and kept open at all costs. Let’s prioritise our youngest vulnerable and dependent members of society from now on. They are not at risk, have sacrificed enough and are our future.

What benefit is it to young people if their parents are thrown out of work (or dead/incapacitated from Covid they bring home to them from school) and the economy is completely busted?

Transmission is not happening as much in gyms, restaurants or at the pub. So why would you need to give these things up?If you stop going to the gym, it’s not going to help the situation in a school is it

The exact figures matter here. Also it's not yet clear to me that the infection is actually being spread significantly in schools. All children go to school so just counting the number of cases doesn't say much. If there were huge outbreaks of half the year then this would be good evidence of spread in schools.

But overall the important concept is cumulative risk. If you do something dangerous on a Monday, say, it doesn't follow that you should take the same risk every day of the week.

Some numpty up thread actually said schools should be kept open ahead of food shops and pharmacy's, that's problem with these all costs people.

Let’s prioritise our youngest vulnerable and dependent members of society from now on. They are not at risk, have sacrificed enough and are our future.

Jeez, let me blunt, other people’s kids are not my future. My future is about me and my family. In my future I have holidays to the Maldives; a self build home and a possible boob job. In the near future there are holidays, restaurants and the gym . I don’t see why I have to put anyone else’s kids and their education above what I want to do. 🤷‍♀️

What benefit is it to young people if their parents are thrown out of work (or dead/incapacitated from Covid they bring home to them from school) and the economy is completely busted?

The argument works the other way round too. If schools are shut then single parents and half of couples with children can't go to work.

Jeez, let me blunt, other people’s kids are not my future. My future is about me and my family. In my future I have holidays to the Maldives; a self build home and a possible boob job.

Their taxes will pay for the NHS when you are old, to fix the roads and the stock market which your pension relies on.

There is no balance at the moment. That’s the issue. Full time face to face is a fairytale bubble that is going to burst. And we will have given up jobs and lives and the chance at any kind of continuity of learning to make that happen.

To be clear- what were are doing at the moment is quite obviously not working. Business are barely holding on. There needs to be a revolutionary change in thought and action to make sure some sort of normal life can be maintained. If that means part time school, small bubbles and social distancing then so be it.

It was where we were in June but Boris was so keen to be popular he fucked it up. Now the message is so mixed that no one knows what the actual rules are and most can’t be bothered anymore.

@annabel85 I'll be thrown out of work if schools close. Not everyone can work from home!

@notevenat20

And right now my taxes pay...so I guess that makes me equally important.

[quote Oaktree55]@MileyWiley vulnerable children have always had school open to them along with key workers. I agree re laptops etc. As Italy have done we need to ensure all children have access.[/quote]
Not true. My DCs school was closed to all students, keyworkers children and vulnerable students included.

@DBML

Let’s prioritise our youngest vulnerable and dependent members of society from now on. They are not at risk, have sacrificed enough and are our future.

Jeez, let me blunt, other people’s kids are not my future. My future is about me and my family. In my future I have holidays to the Maldives; a self build home and a possible boob job. In the near future there are holidays, restaurants and the gym . I don’t see why I have to put anyone else’s kids and their education above what I want to do. 🤷‍♀️

After you have retired who is going to be paying for your pension and for the countries infrastructure? Oh yes, that's right - other people's children.

Hopefully they are a lot less selfish than you evidently are.

@DBML 🤣🤣🤣 completely at odds with my priorities but again given the honesty a view I can respect!

@samosamimosa

I’ve got a private pension and savings. I’ll be fine.
And I couldn’t give a shit if you think I’m selfish. I’m done with being told I have to prioritise everyone else’s kids above myself and my own family. How fucking precious.
I deserve to also have a future and opportunities and so no, I don’t think we should give everything up to keep schools open.
Schools should stay open the same as everything else. Don’t close anything.

I don’t see why I have to put anyone else’s kids and their education above what I want to do
imagine the future of society if children arent educated, there will be no one to staff all the things that you have planned for yourself.
We have a functioning society because people are able to put the wellbeing of others ahead of their own short term desires.
People who raise children are making a sacrifice for society as a whole, if we dont prioritize the wellbeing of children we are damning all of our futures