People will not comply if the restrictions are only social

[NoSleepInTheHeat]

I really believe that if the restrictions are only social (no more than 6 people, no mixing of households inside,...) people won't comply.

If you are being told to take a packed train or tube to go to work and there mix with your colleagues, will you really not see friends or family at the weekend?

If you see people going to the pub down the road every evening, will you really refrain from inviting a couple over to yours for dinner?
Basically, if you can afford to pay you can socialize, otherwise you can't.

Always exciting to see so many people with such a firm ‘knowledge’ on the ‘obvious’ role of children and schools in transmission and Covid.

Worth leaving this review of the evidence on the subject (and crucially what we don’t know.

It also, helpfully, deals with why it doesn’t ‘stand to reason’ that Covid will behave in schools in the same way as diseases that have been established in the community for years.

@Parmavioletmum the logic is that the former activities help prop up the economy without which we'll be in absolute dire straights and unable to find NHS etc. I'm no economist so don't know how much more the economy can take but guess it's carefully balanced so the only thing that the government can really restrict is things which don't impact the economy ie mixing in homes and outdoor spaces etc. That's the logic, because each bit of social contact you remove does reduce the extent of transmission even if it's occurring in other places like schools

I know it's an utterly rubbish situation but to me it is generally logical

‘Problem is, schools are sending out the message covid has gone - both kids asked me after their first day back 'is coronavirus gone now, Mummy?' so I say no and they say 'why is school back to normal then?' good question‘

Why is their school back to normal? Most schools are working their socks off (with no budget or government support as far as I can see...) to be as safe as possible within their limitations. It’s school but it’s not normal.

@Parmavioletmum

I think it's because there seems to be no logic to the rule. I saw a comparison on here previously that it's a law like saying you can't drive drunk unless it's a Monday. My kids can go to school, we can go to work, soft play, nursery, to the pub or restaurant but can no longer visit my parents in there home. I'm generally a rule follower but in this case I will continue to see my parents. There is no logic behind the governments rule this time, and if I could afford to see them at a pub or restaurant that would be acceptable.

The logic is most transmissions are reported to be in the home My DH goes to the pub they have to be seated and it’s well organised social distances are observed This does not happen when the children and grandchildren visit our home even though we try our best

Thing is if you only look at something from a logical point of view, one of the worst things to be open is schools, with all those bodies crammed together in small, badly ventilated rooms with very little SD going on. But looking at it from other points of view eg education of children, working parents they need to be open, so other rules need to be brought in to try and mitigate the risks, which might not seem logical. Same with hospitality industry, not logical to be open but needed to help the economy. Unfortunately I do think ultimately both schools and hospitality will be hit at some point because people won’t stick to any rules (and then will be complaining on here)

I'm working with 200 children, no level of SD. We had to wait 10 days before disinfectant and sanitizer arrived in our area. I know my blood pressure is up. I'm not saying to close schools, just that I constantly feel at risk and uncomfortable. I really don't want to be near others outside school right now, it's the only way I can limit the risk for me and my family.

I have a second job, which is so different. Hand washing encouraged, sanitizer everyone, masks, vizor, screens and even with masks on we are expected to SD.

Schools are doing everything they can, but “everything they can” means very little when we are all crammed in to poorly-ventilated rooms for ours at a time. Bubbles are enormous and it is proving impossible to get hundreds of kids to keep apart, or even wash their hands.

The only protection we have is crossing our fingers that no-one comes in infected. It’s very stressful and it’s really disheartening to read the “well if they’re at school it doesn’t matter what else they do” comments.

Thank you to all of the posters who do get it, though.

Ours -> hours.

It's back to normal except extra handwashing - when we now now that the fomite route is very insignificant compared to breathing in the virus. And they don't have enough sinks.

I agree, schools are working their socks off in all the wrong directions, doing things that are relatively unimportant in terms of infection control. Because the government has given them sod all money to do anything else.

Transmission is via breathing in exhaled air. Masks would be the lowest cost option to reduce this, but no. Despite the fact my friend's 5 year old in the USA wears one all day in school no problem. He's pleased to do his bit like everyone else who can.

I basically am very unlikely to get infected anywhere other than my kids being in school because I understand how the virus really spreads and act accordingly.

Problem is, community levels ARE NOT low enough to prevent cases getting into schools, and once there it will spread because the conditions are perfect.

If they wanted schools back without disruptions 'eat out to help out' and 'bin WFH and go back to the office so you can prop up city landlords' was a really bad idea. But that ship has sailed.

I question the logic of some of the rules as much as anyone else does, but I won't be breaking them. I must live in a particularly law-abiding area, I think, because I've seen very little evidence of people breaking the rules since the beginning. I'm a teacher and teach in multiple schools, so I'm not just going from bubble to bubble, but school to school too. No real social distancing in schools, as everyone knows. Still doesn't mean I'm going to ignore rules outside school though.

I dislike Boris and his mates as much as anyone, but I'm fed up with people acting as though disliking politicians is a good reason for breaking the law. It's an excuse, not a reason. Even if you're ideologically opposed to the rules, you live in a country and benefit from its laws, so you shouldn't get to pick which ones you fancy obeying.

schools are sending out the message covid has gone

Surely you're not suggesting schools are actually saying this?! Or do you just mean that the fact that schools are open is making some children think covid has gone?

SqidgeBum I had my second baby in lockdown. I get it, I really do. Ignore the ones (who also can’t read your post properly re your husband’s shifts) saying “I did it alone so you can too”. Until they have had it enforced by the restrictions we have been under they have absolutely no fucking clue. This used to be a site where a bit of slack was cut for mothers of newborns and toddlers, but no longer - you are supposed to have no needs at all. I hope all goes well for you and you can access the support you need.

I saw a comparison on here previously that it's a law like saying you can't drive drunk unless it's a Monday.

It’s not a very good comparison, though, is it? The societal harms of not drink driving are minimal to none. The societal harms of children not being in school, or closing industries that employ millions are significant, so an entirely unsatisfactory balance needs to be struck. There is no way for it to be perfect and suppress Covid at the same time as enabling an even vaguely functioning society. So there are trade offs, and none of them are comfortable.

I hate the idea of giving away the minimal social life I’ve rebuilt since lockdown. It’s so precious to me. But if the goal is to reduce the number of social contacts across society I can see that those are probably the ones that will do the least harm on a societal level even though they’re difficult to me personally.

If people don't comply on that basis they are thick! Its about reducing our overall contact with others not saying one scenario is "safer" than the other. Neither scenario is "safe" but sometimes its essential for us to be in the unsafe scenario such as public transport or a work or school environment, going to the pub with your mates or having a social gathering aren't essential at the moment. The more we restrict our interactions with others the less chances the virus has to spread and the sooner we can resume some normality its not rocket science!

lazylinguist
That's how I feel.

I'll be following the rules, but I can understand why some people (who have previously been following the rules) are starting to get fed up at all the chopping and changing, the lack of logic and the general gaslighting of the British public, especially teenagers.

All of Boris' decisions are based on what will make his mates money and have almost nothing to do with the health and safety of the British public.

I'd have much rather the government properly funded schools to set up blended learning, especially at secondary, then had partial on site teaching with smaller class sizes and staff allocated to meaningful bubbles. On Mumsnet this made me a work-shy teacher who didn't care about the children, but many of us anticipated this situation months ago.

Surely you're not suggesting schools are actually saying this?! Or do you just mean that the fact that schools are open is making some children think covid has gone?

Teachers and TAs are amazing and are in an impossible situation - but....

DD1 went back to school 4 weeks in June / July, all classes were back. With clever use of space (including outdoors) - fully socially distanced, desks 2m apart, classes no more than 15. All her friends social distanced in class and in the playground.

Teachers have gone from saying 'you must social distance' to 'social distance where possible' (because they are no longer social distancing in class, but sitting right next to each other) and the children have taken that to mean 'you don't have to'.

DD1 says her friends are now hugging, kissing, playing contact games in the playground. Kids aren't big on nuance. I've actually overheard her friend saying 'well, we're sitting almost touching shoulders in class, so what does it matter?'.

IF the government won't fund the school to have any meaningful risk reduction then the message THEY are sending via the school is 'everything is fine now'.

All of Boris' decisions are based on what will make his mates money and have almost nothing to do with the health and safety of the British public.

Yes, this. And everyone can see this very clearly now.

Teachers have gone from saying 'you must social distance' to 'social distance where possible' (because they are no longer social distancing in class, but sitting right next to each other) and the children have taken that to mean 'you don't have to'.
That's the guidance given to schools.
It's not teachers deciding it.

Basically, the government wanted schools open in full, decided to ban partial opening, prevent schools using other settings, said any measures to reduce Covid had to come out of existing budgets and then came up with the terribly gimmicky laptop scheme. They showed lots of socially distanced classes of 15 on the news, successfully whipped up the frothy parent brigade (the sort who were on the rants on Mumsnet), had the media paint a picture of evil teaching unions who hate the idea of working, all with the view of getting the general population to get behind full opening.
Then it turns out that the government plan was really 'fill the schools at whatever cost' and people are acting like this is a surprise.

That’s because social distancing in schools is not possible, most of the time. Guidance had to reflect that or schools wouldn’t have been able to open full time.

Xpost ^ yep.

Then it turns out that the government plan was really 'fill the schools at whatever cost' and people are acting like this is a surprise.

I've been writing to head teachers and MPs since June. Not everyone is surprised. Sad, disappointed, feel like teachers and TAs and vulnerable kids and parents are being thrown under a bus, yes - but surprised, no, sadly.

The unions seem to be making noises again now, and so they should. The promise was testing would work, well, that was another lie. As is, schools are unsafe workplaces IMO.

We needed part time schooling this while school year and moderated teacher assessments instead of exams.

It’s not remotely surprising how much colds (and COVID) are spreading round these huge bubbles. I’m surprised to see how many parents are saying that schools are special and COVID secure or have “different rules”.

There is no effective social distancing in schools. It’s not possible without them becoming prisons if you keep numbers at the current level. Just look how colds and COVID are spreading. The only way to reduce the spread is less children mixing with each other by reducing bubble size.

I hope those of you planning NOT to follow the rules, will remember the mental and physical health of those who are vulnerable.

YOU may think you're suffering with stress and 'mental health' problems, but spare a thought for those of us who have to totally isolate. Not only can we not have friends round, but we can't go out either. At all, Anywhere. Because if we do, we can catch COVID from YOU who are out walking or in shops, and we could DIE. Do you have any idea what impact this has on someone's mental health? Thought not.

This what many of us have to look forward to, if YOU don't follow the rules.

Yes I do know the impact on vulnerable people’s mental health, because within my family we have clinically vulnerable members who were/are shielding. We also have HCPs and teachers who have been working outside the home throughout, parents attempting to WFH and care for toddlers at the same time, babies born in lockdown with restrictions triggering PND, a family member who has lost their job, and several single people living alone and wfh. All have struggled in different ways and these aren’t distinct separate groups of people, and we cannot keep up a blame game of “you want me to SUFFER AND DIE” from every angle

The schools in my opinion are similar to going to work, we need them in operation, it is not really a choice, children have the right to an education more than adults having the right to go shopping, eat out, go on holiday.

it's carefully balanced so the only thing that the government can really restrict is things which don't impact the economy ie mixing in homes and outdoor spaces
I understand the economical argument. But still it disproportionately affects people who don't have money to pay whenever they want to see friends/family. Or people whose idea of fun is not drinking at the pub but meeting 'quietly' at home.

At least I'm glad that we seem to be heading back to 'WFH if you can' which is common sense really.

But all it would take to make the schools safer is some money, not that much, compared to how much they've wasted.

That's the problem. The unwillingness to fund schools - ideological not science based.