We have a right to education, a right to personal liberty, a right to family time, or we did before Covid.

[Treesofwood]

But not any more. So how do we decide when some people's rights (including right to life) mean that others lose their rights. There have always been people who could get very sick and even die if they were to catch anyone of a number of viruses that circulate every year. No one suggested everyone should give up their right to personal liberty to prevent that. There have always been people who are killed on the roads every year. No one suggested that non essential car journeys should be banned to reduce or prevent this. Why are people with cancer's lives seen as less worth saving than those who might catch Covid? Why are people OK with this? How can the government make it illegal for me to see my parents?

@MadameBlobby

Human rights are inalienable. They are not for the government to relinquish on our behalf.

What I am not clear is the case is that we are being deprived on them. It’ll need someone to take the government to court.

.... Human rights laws have exceptions for life-threatening emergencies, such as war, terrorism or public health

The 30 years of the NI Troubles "only" killed 3,500 over 30 years and we had exceptions from human rights laws for that
Islamic terrorism has "only" killed a couple of hundred in the UK and we make exceptions for that

Ive said this before.

There are exceptions under the human rights act for 'reasonable measures' in times of a public health emergency to suspend freedoms in the greater national interest as long as the action is proportional to the threat posed.

It would be difficult to argue the government have acted unlawfully and that the HRA has been breached.

Snap !

I would say that repeated government cockups and lucrative contracts to their incompetent friends are making this much worse than it need be

However, any government would have to take broadly similar measures,
but if carried out competently - e.g. testing, track & trace - wouldn't cause as much pain and stress

@Lindtballsrock

Op do you understand that if it looked like people could need emergency icu treatment, on masse, across the entire country, in their tens of thousands at a rate of hundreds of new cases a day because of driving/smoking/whatever, and the nhs was in danger of collapsing as a result then they would bring in restrictive measures to prevent that? The restrictions aren’t because of Covid per se, they are because there is a serious threat to our ability to treat critically ill people.

And people saying ‘just protect the vulnerable‘ don’t seem to realise that the ‘vulnerable’ are working in our schools, hospitals, courts, emergency services, banks, shops...everywhere. If we quarantine the vulnerable indefinitely who pays their wages, their rent, their bills? We can’t just send them home to hide, we have to try to find a way of minimizing the impact of this virus and that’s what the restrictions are about.

This.

There's no inconsistency with the treatment of flu, smoking etc, because it's not the basic fact that covid kills people which is the real issue here. It's more about the sheer numbers who could be ill at once, and the related disruption that comes from a new infectious disease vs an old known one with some immunity, or from something like smoking that isn't contagious and doesn't have the potential for exponential growth.

I’d be interested to know how many of those banging on about human rights in this outraged tone have previously said we need to get rid of human rights for refugees, “illegal” immigrants etc.

I’m always minded of the song, ‘if you tolerate this, then your children will be next.’

I don’t mind wearing a mask, but given the second spike in cases, I’m not convinced it’s an effective deterrent. I suspect however That we will continue to be forced to wear them for a long time.

@CountessFrog

I’m always minded of the song, ‘if you tolerate this, then your children will be next.’

I don’t mind wearing a mask, but given the second spike in cases, I’m not convinced it’s an effective deterrent. I suspect however That we will continue to be forced to wear them for a long time.

We started wearing masks whilst lockdown was massively eased.

Does cases rising show they don’t work or that cases would have risen more without them.

Think about it.

Cases don’t absolutely mean masks don’t work... they can mean they helped.

I’m inclined to believe the increasing amount of studies saying they reduce risk. And the new study that says masks seem to be causing people to have a milder case of COVID and thus hopefully at least short term immunity.

And the Manics were overrated rubbish, but you could interpret their lyrics to fit the other side of the argument too. That’s the thing about art. Doesn’t prove your argument I’m afraid. They also sang about the joys of ocean spray cranberry juice but it doesn’t mean we all have to drink it.

@Bluelinings

I’d be interested to know how many of those banging on about human rights in this outraged tone have previously said we need to get rid of human rights for refugees, “illegal” immigrants etc.

@Bluelinings I’ve consistently voted, written and protested to protect the human rights of others, and chosen a career to help protect them.

I think the idea is OP that if the restrictions on these rights are lifted then covid infection will rise exponentially to a natural peak, and that in itself will severely restrict those rights (eg. schooling and pretty much everything else). The option to simply reinstate all the things you want isn't there, it literally isn't possible, because of the virus. That is at least the belief.

That reality somewhat underlines the fact that as you realise, in a state of nature we have no rights. Rights are a human desire and legal concept granted by legislation. What is the legal position on the Covid restrictions? For example what provision is there for exceptional circs and security etc, what burden of evidence is needed? I don't know. If you are so minded you could no doubt join with others to consult a legal expert.

I admire you for that WouldBeGood.

I’m concerned about a number I see with conflicting views hence my remark, but totally understand that it is never applicable all.

I admire your good work and apologies if I’ve caused offence in trying to make a point to a few others.

Infringement of basic human rights such as the right ti a family life and so on is supposed to be proportionate. Debatable in this instance.

FFS not this again "yawn". Yes yes we are all hysterical, all cowards, we need to accept we all die. Let's just get in with it blah blah blah. I just can't be bothered with the scientific explanations again by as people who espouse this argument are usually scientifically illiterate and just ignore the evidence anyway so bullet points:-exponential growth,

• new virus,
• limited /lmmunity ,

-sheer weight of numbers getting ill at the same time affecting the economy (not necessarily dying just getting illl)

If what we are doing is having an effect , the ignorant then say it was an overreaction

@ohthegoats
Oh yes Sweden, the supposed paragon of dealing with Covid by ignoring it and to all intents and purposes euthanasing their elderly with no attempt to help whatsoever. And their economy is more fucked than those Scandinavian countries which did lockdown . That is because all the evidence is that what fucks up an economy most is lots of uncontrolled and ' out of the ordinary' illness and deaths.

@Blackforesthotchoc

There's no point op. I'd say 90%+ of mumsnet have swallowed the covid koolaid. They will still be wittering about being safe when there's no economy left, no civil liberties and a nicely functioning police state that ensures they can give free reign to their desires to inform on their neighbours for any infractions. For their own safety you understand.

And it is the people who are willing ( though not happy) to take precautions and follow medical advice who are the hysterical ones

'A right to family time'. Honestly, you sound like a toddler.

Your 'rights', perceived or imagined, do not trump the greater good.

But you could get yourself a nice Sovereign Citizen t-shirt, I guess. And in the meantime, count your blessings you weren't around during the last world war, when your 'right' to let off fireworks and hold bonfires would have been sadly curtailed by blackout.

And people undergoing treatment for Cancer have always had to isolate themselves from children and people with colds etc, to protect themselves while their immune system was so compromised by the treatment.

Well said @bumblingbovine49

Don't worry op, we are only doing fascism until there is a vaccine.

[quote housemdwaswrong]@Tootletum it hasn't got mu h lower death rates, compared to us (only marginally lower) and compared to its neighbours it's much higher. It has a lower case rate now than it's neighbours but a cumulated it's substantially higher. 5th highest per capita in Europe.

I'm not saying this is the right way, from my point of view it's been reactionary and ill thought out throughout. You only have to look on here to see even health professionals that don't know what the current (ever changing) guidance is. My only point is that Sweden had a lockdown in everything but name, and currently accumulated deaths are not good. How it will pan out is anyones guess. But lauding them.as an example is wrong based on both their accumulated stats, and the very different demographics.

Regarding your example of your mum, I think that's one of the biggest issues, and revolves around communication, which has been literally, worse than useless.[/quote]
What lockdown did Sweden have, there were videos of them partying while we were all in our houses, only allowed out for exercise. Stop with the blatant lies.

Op, my child is not being denied an education. I can seems family whenever I wish and my personal liberties are not being eroded in any meaningful way.

The only things I cannot do, which I normally would are Parkrun and going to the theatre. With luck parkrun will be back next month.

We have a pandemic. Most people understand that and take the requested precautions. If, when cv19 is passed, anyone asks me to wear a mask, I will refuse, but right now, I have enough respect for my friends & neighbours.

Too many people lack the moral fortitude and sense of responsibility and solidarity to do the right thing. Some of them dress it up in libertarian statements they half understand, cribbed fourth-hand from some numpty on Facebook.

There have always been people who could get very sick and even die if they were to catch anyone of a number of viruses that circulate every year.

And these people have the right to proper medical treatment - not just left to die.

What if COVID, or a similar virus, killed children instead of the elderly? Would people be so quick to write them off so casually?

@JKRowlingIsMyQueen

Don't worry op, we are only doing fascism until there is a vaccine.

Fascism? Get a grip.

It really is time people stopped droning on about Sweden. The comparison is stupid as has been pointed out many times.

@ jkrowlingismyqueen Is it fascism or communism? I'm not sure which path we are heading up.