Is the U.K. in danger of becoming a police state?

[Chocolategirl1]

We have now been living with restrictions to our civil liberties for 6 months. The state now has the power to force us to dress in a certain way (face coverings), to restrict our right to family life (no more than 6 in social gatherings), to give up our personal details to retail establishments (contact details to restaurants/pubs), to give up our children’s right to a fair education (continued closures of schools following coronavirus cases), in some cases to give up our right to run a business or work (for example those businesses that can’t run properly due to social distancing etc), and now we have more police powers for enforcement of these rules and apparently “Covid Marshalls” to spy on people and control their behaviour. And there is no definite end point to any of this. None at all. There are vague “hopes” that the state will “try” to return to some kind of normal by a Christmas, but now that’s apparently dependent on regular mass testing - which in itself is a restriction on liberty. My worry is this: now that the state has realised it can control people in this way, will it give up those powers at all? Even if we get a vaccine, will the state actually give us back our freedom like it was before? And what if we never get a vaccine? People may say that all of this is justified by a virus (though a virus that has overall an extremely low fatality rate) but many governments throughout history have taken their citizens’ rights away permanently. How do we know our government won’t do the same?

@AverageNSad

Hi *@BamboozledandBefuddled* I accept your viewpoint but I really feel for those who are vulnerable and who are being told that they are worthless.

Shame that many of the most vulnerable in society were treated as less than worthless and vilified before covid appeared.

@Firef1y72 not by me. I don’t think either is acceptable.

The government's use of its powers can also be scrutinised by judicial review. And the government is trying to limit the the ability to have a judicial review of government actions.

Those who are contrasting with China, Russia etc - OP isn't saying "Are we a police state?" she is saying "Are we in danger of becoming one?". So the question is "are the foundations being put in place which would make it easier for a government so inclined to turn us into a police state?"

I'm not a Conservative supporter or voter and have always voted either Labour, Lib Dem or Green, however...

Conservatives, for all their faults, are not into authoritarian government. In fact this lot are very much into very little government, state, public services and much more into laissez-faire economics, I'm all right Jack and some of the party are fairly extreme libertarians.

From a police-state perspective, I'd actually be a lot more worried if we still had Tony Blair as a prime minister who was pretty keen on authoritarianism, if you look at all the terrorism legislation.

So in conclusion, is the UK in danger of being fucked over for years by an incompetent government? Yes. We have the wonders of Brexit to come, don't forget.

Is it in danger of becoming a police state? No.

That's true as well Firefly. But it's not either or. The govt's handling of Covid is simply a logical extension of its treatment of the vulnerable for the last decade.

@iVampire, I am sickened daily by what I read on here from people who seem to genuinely believe their kids birthday party actually trumps the need to protect those who need it, and whose retort when called out is that their grandmother is telling them to live their lives and forget her (which I have a sneaking suspicion they probably do anyway) while their dead grandmother was a huge euthanasia fan. I don't know how they sleep.

"Extremely low fatality rate" if it spread through the country to numbers of other illnesses it would not be an extremely low fatality rate. There are also increasing issues on our health system with long covid.

Honestly? Our compliance levels are shockingly low. Imagine if it was China? We are the opposite of a police state.

Seriously.

"My six year old needs a birthday party".
"I want to watch TV with six other family members".

We have all given up a lot this year. To read all of this is pathetic.

Maybe these people have never gone through real hardship?

No

We have a dreadful government who seems to lie and cheat at every turn. If we had a reasonable/decent government I would be less concerned about all these restrictions on our freedom, because I could trust that it is for the common good. I do think Johnson has pretty much lost the plot and is unable to steer the country at this time of crisis. So yes to me we heading in the wrong direction...

@Graciebobcat

So in conclusion, is the UK in danger of being fucked over for years by an incompetent government? Yes. We have the wonders of Brexit to come, don't forget.

Is it in danger of becoming a police state? No.

The idea of this being a police state is laughable 😂 they have no idea how lucky we are. The world is literally falling apart and until the 14th you can't even get a fine (yes, a measley fine!) for having a massive party because "omg, my child has turned 6!"

Originally we were supposed to be flattening the curve to prevent the NHS being over-run. I could accept that as a goal, but now I have no idea what the goal is

To keep it flat. - there’s still a contagious disease without cure and only a few treatments about. I think the government should have set much more realistic expectations but looking at some common responses I can see why they didn’t. There is a significant minority of people incapable of keeping their shit together and another who just don’t care.

All I know is that I keep reading that we need to "control the virus", or that if we all follow the rules "it'll be over quicker". Hate to break it to you, but it's a virus, we can't just put it in time out to control it. It's also endemic, we can't eradicate it, even if a vaccine appears, people will still get it and people would still die. And if we all stick to the rules, it won't actually be over quicker, this could drag on for years, we are simply slowing the process and IMO we are slowing it too much, to the point that there will probably be more damage from our slowing process than the actual virus

But we’ve proved that the spread can be controlled, now it’s a case of fine tuning exactly how that can fit in with day to day life. Slowing the spread is exactly the point, we need to deal with a trickle of cases not a tsunami.

Yes we’re in a situation that is more likely to last years than months but I’m afraid that’s more a result of people only hearing what they want to hear. Any mention of vaccines, celebrations, travel or openings of particular sectors has always been accompanied by disclaimers that there are best case scenario’s and worst case scenarios.

Looking at it realistically based on previous pandemics the virus should naturally become less prevalent - it may not, but it’s not unreasonable to make the assumption that eventually there will be enough antibodies amongst the population to provide more natural firebreaks to break more chains of transmission. It will still be about, even with a vaccine, but hopefully isolated to much more controllable outbreaks.

All we have is conjecture, covid was discovered in December/January and we can’t do anything about the time needed to understand it.

Exactly what Derbygerbil said.

Some of you need to look up the definition of a police state. The police enforcing laws passed by a democratically elected parliament does not constitute a police state.

If people really don’t like Covid being taken seriously they are welcome to start a party and try to get elected.

Personally I find the whingeing about the 6 person law to be extremely selfish. It is basically asking a lot of old and vulnerable party to not associate with anyone at all so you can have a party.

Conservatives, for all their faults, are not into authoritarian government. In fact this lot are very much into very little government, state, public services and much more into laissez-faire economics, I'm all right Jack and some of the party are fairly extreme libertarians. Nobody is saying this is a police state. The question being asked is are we unconcernedly moving into a situation where a future government has the basics in place to move to being a police state.

But you do realise that if this goes on for years then the damage caused by the mitigation will far exceed the damage caused by the virus itself don't you?

Previous pandemics have been allowed to go through a natural cycle, we have seriously restricted and slowed the cycle of this one. At the rate it's currently at of 3000 a day, let's say 5000 as many cases are still not tested, it will take at least 25 years for 75% of the population of the UK to catch it and some form of herd immunity to develop. Actually probably far, far longer, as the spread will slow as the number of susceptible people reduces. And that's before we consider that immunity may not be long lasting (Although I would imagine that similar to other coronavirus an infection while not producing full immunity will reduce severity on subsequent). Are you really willing to live like this for the next 30, 40, 50 years? Because I refuse to accept that I'm going to spend the rest of my life living like this.

There is of course an answer to avoid this which is DO THE FUCKING SENSIBLE THING NOW and then it won't need to be a consideration

Firefly,

We are almost certain to have a vaccine within one year. One year is not forever.

In 1918, they did not live with Spanish flu, either.

@Firef1y72 we don’t need herd immunity to be in a better position than we are now. Outbreaks slow at a much lower percentage because of the breaks in the chains of transmission in the community.

This country doesn’t routinely vaccinate for chicken pox but we’re not over run with it because of the same thing. In fact I’m now considering paying for the chicken pox vaccine for my dd because she hasn’t managed to pick it up yet and I don’t want her to have to deal with it when she’s older and it’s liable to be worse for her.

@Teal99

but nearly all Tories would still vote for them again - which they know

I won't. I am politically homeless now. I can't see myself voting again. I am 55. I can't seeing Labour coming good in my lifetime. Lib Dem's are finished. I won't vote Tory again.

.. same here and same with some other friends like me - middle class/ middle aged/ professional workers.

Firefly I do not think you know nearly as much as previous pandemics as you think you do. People did their best to prevent infection (even though a lot of what they did was ineffective) and they certainly damaged the economy of the time, often far, far worse than what we are seeing today. Are you somehow under the impression that people didnt notice them?

"There is of course an answer to avoid this which is DO THE FUCKING SENSIBLE THING NOW and then it won't need to be a consideration"

If the govt want a police state its not because of covid and doing the RIGHT THING wont help. Especially if the RIGHT THING is to oppose govt actions policies and laws.

There is of course an answer to avoid this which is DO THE FUCKING SENSIBLE THING NOW and then it won't need to be a consideration

Now you've told me in CAPITALS I will be sure to make sure I do it is a most effective strategy.

@Graciebobcat

I'm not a Conservative supporter or voter and have always voted either Labour, Lib Dem or Green, however...

Conservatives, for all their faults, are not into authoritarian government. In fact this lot are very much into very little government, state, public services and much more into laissez-faire economics, I'm all right Jack and some of the party are fairly extreme libertarians.

From a police-state perspective, I'd actually be a lot more worried if we still had Tony Blair as a prime minister who was pretty keen on authoritarianism, if you look at all the terrorism legislation.

Exactly. Johnson didn't even want to lockdown in the first place, don't people remember all the guff about taking it on the chin?

The UK is in a terrible state, but we are nowhere near approaching a police state to think so, it's laughable.

As for the Covid Marshals thing, they are not going to be knocking on our doors wily nily. Anyway, like a lot of the hare brained schemes Jonson has come up with during the pandemic, the idea probably won't properly get off the ground.

@MereDintofPandiculation

Conservatives, for all their faults, are not into authoritarian government. In fact this lot are very much into very little government, state, public services and much more into laissez-faire economics, I'm all right Jack and some of the party are fairly extreme libertarians. Nobody is saying this is a police state. The question being asked is are we unconcernedly moving into a situation where a future government has the basics in place to move to being a police state.

Actually, as that poster said, some of the terrorismlegislation Blair brought in could have been seen as the basics for moving towards a police state if misused, and a lot of people were worried about this at the time.

No, don't be daft.