Is the U.K. in danger of becoming a police state?

[Chocolategirl1]

We have now been living with restrictions to our civil liberties for 6 months. The state now has the power to force us to dress in a certain way (face coverings), to restrict our right to family life (no more than 6 in social gatherings), to give up our personal details to retail establishments (contact details to restaurants/pubs), to give up our children’s right to a fair education (continued closures of schools following coronavirus cases), in some cases to give up our right to run a business or work (for example those businesses that can’t run properly due to social distancing etc), and now we have more police powers for enforcement of these rules and apparently “Covid Marshalls” to spy on people and control their behaviour. And there is no definite end point to any of this. None at all. There are vague “hopes” that the state will “try” to return to some kind of normal by a Christmas, but now that’s apparently dependent on regular mass testing - which in itself is a restriction on liberty. My worry is this: now that the state has realised it can control people in this way, will it give up those powers at all? Even if we get a vaccine, will the state actually give us back our freedom like it was before? And what if we never get a vaccine? People may say that all of this is justified by a virus (though a virus that has overall an extremely low fatality rate) but many governments throughout history have taken their citizens’ rights away permanently. How do we know our government won’t do the same?

Yep I feel the same OP and to the people downplaying this by saying "we aren't like HK or Australia" that does not matter, there has been a big shift in this country regarding our democracy and we have a right to be concerned.

What is also really worrying is the covid snitches who will confront you in the street and phone the police if you are 'breaking the law'

I tell you now, I will not obey a curfew.

I wouldn't worry too much about the ShanghaiChick imposing rules and getting excitable about how China are doing it right.

This is the woman who circumnavigated border control to escape China and return to the UK when all of this was kicking off - and whilst not technically illegal - certainly in a grey area morally.

She does seem to think she's a Covid Chief Inspector though - having previously supported the regime for cash.

there has been a big shift in this country regarding our democracy and we have a right to be concerned.

Oh I agree to this but to call it a police state is just hyperbole that weakens the argument. There has been a big shift and it's due to incompetence, poor government and selfishness. It's not due to some Machiavellian plan.

So should we just let the virus take its course without any form of intervention?

Can you actually imagine what that would be like? I often find that people who advocate this as a strategy are ok as long as the ones who die are ‘others’ ie not their family or friends.

Are you genuinely ok with this meaning that at least a few of your friends and family will die? Granny? Your young nephew? You? Or are you just ok with other people dying so you can get on with your life?

This is nowhere near a police state imo. I am not a Conservative party supporter and I think aspects of the pandemic have been badly handled but I think the government has done its best.

I definitely don’t think we should be allowing the vulnerable (both young and old) to be sacrificial lambs just so people don’t have to wear masks, avoid large gatherings and make other temporary sacrifices.

If this was a virus which mainly affected 8-55 age group I bet a lot of the people objecting would be taking a different approach. There would be riots if the older generation were doing what some people are doing now and increasing the spread of the virus.

@Derbygerbil

No, the Government have introduced restrictions to manage the pandemic and are policing them. It’s disconcerting and troubling, but if the people up in arms had their way, we’d likely be back to where we were in March in a few weeks.

People have questioned whether we should have implemented restrictions earlier in March, but the question at the time was whether people would accept it. The reaction here indicates those who were concerned about this had a point.

Prevention doesn’t seem a concept some people understand. They seem to think that its best to wait and only begin act when a tragedy is unfolding. If we hadn’t been through March and April that might be understandable, but to knowingly agitate for us to tread the same path twice in the naive hope it’ll somehow all be over now is beyond stupid.... It’s a bit like only giving up cigarettes when you’ve been diagnosed with lung cancer.

Well said

That is an extremely disturbing erosion of our human rights

The human right to health is one of the very important ones.

Government are not only allowed, they are obliged, to take steps for the “prevention, treatment and control of epidemic, endemic, occupational and other diseases.”

What then follows is how to ensure that the steps required to uphold thus right are necessary and proportionate

www.hrw.org/news/2020/03/19/human-rights-dimensions-covid-19-response

[quote meditrina]That is an extremely disturbing erosion of our human rights

The human right to health is one of the very important ones.

Government are not only allowed, they are obliged, to take steps for the “prevention, treatment and control of epidemic, endemic, occupational and other diseases.”

What then follows is how to ensure that the steps required to uphold thus right are necessary and proportionate

www.hrw.org/news/2020/03/19/human-rights-dimensions-covid-19-response[/quote]
Good post

And no

I'd be more concerned about Alexa than Covid Marshalls, as a tool to implement a police state.

I seem to remember that the governments initial plan was herd immunity; let’s not close schools and businesses and even though many people will die, we’ll get through it. This plan was met with outrage and the government was pushed into closing schools and implementing shutdowns. I have no problems with the government saying don’t meet in groups of more than 6, what I’m concerned about is that I don’t think the government should be instructing the police to fine and arrest people for breaking this rule. Even though it is a simple rule, many people are very confused about what it means in relation to previous rules, for example about mixing households and bubbles.

.

Yes, we already are a police state.
Who on earth would apply to be a Covid Marshall?
Where is the opposition to all of this?

Ha! Police state. This is why I read MN threads. It's like a gift that keeps on giving at the moment. Pure entertainment on threads like this. The best part is trying to guess which posters are actually serious and who's having a laugh.

Mn is ridiculous with this stuff.

Hilarious. I've lived in a police state. This really isnt even close. Are the COVID police disappearing people in.your area for thought crimes then?

Where is the opposition to all of this?

Seeing the Emergency Powers bill pass unopposed - they're really not against this

The Parliamentary six month review is due in a couple of weeks. So now is the time to contact your MP if you want to persuade them to speak against any aspect of current use

I often find that people who advocate this as a strategy are ok as long as the ones who die are ‘others’ ie not their family or friends

I’m one of the ‘others’ who could well die

The number of people who will openly state that I and people like me are disposable has been truly horrifying

@Porcupineinwaiting

Hilarious. I've lived in a police state. This really isnt even close. Are the COVID police disappearing people in.your area for thought crimes then?

I know, right.

I think people are confusing the term “police state” with a “state that has police who seek to enforce the law”.

What is happening in this country is something we should all be very concerned about.
The Government intends to break International Law, this will be where democracy ends.
Write to your MP and object in the strongest terms.
Hold them to account.
It takes 2 mins , you can write to them through ‘ They work for you’.

I agree @iVampire - truly horrible and disgusting things have been said about vulnerable people.

I’m saddened by this.

@AverageNSad

I agree *@iVampire* - truly horrible and disgusting things have been said about vulnerable people.

I’m saddened by this.

Same. The "I will do what I want because I believe all the conspiracy theories spouted by the media, and am a selfish arsehole" seem to be posting on this thread.

@AverageNSad

So should we just let the virus take its course without any form of intervention?

Can you actually imagine what that would be like? I often find that people who advocate this as a strategy are ok as long as the ones who die are ‘others’ ie not their family or friends.

Are you genuinely ok with this meaning that at least a few of your friends and family will die? Granny? Your young nephew? You? Or are you just ok with other people dying so you can get on with your life?

This is nowhere near a police state imo. I am not a Conservative party supporter and I think aspects of the pandemic have been badly handled but I think the government has done its best.

I definitely don’t think we should be allowing the vulnerable (both young and old) to be sacrificial lambs just so people don’t have to wear masks, avoid large gatherings and make other temporary sacrifices.

If this was a virus which mainly affected 8-55 age group I bet a lot of the people objecting would be taking a different approach. There would be riots if the older generation were doing what some people are doing now and increasing the spread of the virus.

I think there's a huge range of options between the current measures and no form of intervention at all. However, if you see it being as black and white as those being the only two options available, then I choose no intervention. And yes, I'm genuinely ok with that meaning there's a possibility (nothing more) that people I know may become ill, they may be left with life-changing after effects from that illness, they may die from that illness. Or to put it another way, the situation is exactly what it was before anyone had heard of Covid. Illness and death are not new although this fact has clearly come as a shock to a surprisingly large number of people.

Hi @BamboozledandBefuddled I accept your viewpoint but I really feel for those who are vulnerable and who are being told that they are worthless.

@AverageNSad

So should we just let the virus take its course without any form of intervention?

Can you actually imagine what that would be like? I often find that people who advocate this as a strategy are ok as long as the ones who die are ‘others’ ie not their family or friends.

Are you genuinely ok with this meaning that at least a few of your friends and family will die? Granny? Your young nephew? You? Or are you just ok with other people dying so you can get on with your life?

This is nowhere near a police state imo. I am not a Conservative party supporter and I think aspects of the pandemic have been badly handled but I think the government has done its best.

I definitely don’t think we should be allowing the vulnerable (both young and old) to be sacrificial lambs just so people don’t have to wear masks, avoid large gatherings and make other temporary sacrifices.

If this was a virus which mainly affected 8-55 age group I bet a lot of the people objecting would be taking a different approach. There would be riots if the older generation were doing what some people are doing now and increasing the spread of the virus.

There is going to be a tipping point, in the not so distant future where we may well have to make the decision to allow the virus to take it's course. It's only been in the last 50 years or so that we've become so determined to try and save lives at any cost and we seem to have forgotten that people die every single day. It's just with 24/7 media, it now seems to have become our mission to prevent every death from covid, at the expense of other preventable deaths.

Originally we were supposed to be flattening the curve to prevent the NHS being over-run. I could accept that as a goal, but now I have no idea what the goal is. All I know is that I keep reading that we need to "control the virus", or that if we all follow the rules "it'll be over quicker". Hate to break it to you, but it's a virus, we can't just put it in time out to control it. It's also endemic, we can't eradicate it, even if a vaccine appears, people will still get it and people would still die. And if we all stick to the rules, it won't actually be over quicker, this could drag on for years, we are simply slowing the process and IMO we are slowing it too much, to the point that there will probably be more damage from our slowing process than the actual virus.

I do't know what the answer is, but I have heard subtle changes in language, about having to learn to live with it. Hopefully it won't be too much longer before more people start to realise this isn't going away and all we are doing is delaying the inevitable and very likely not even actually saving any lives.

Do you really fancy the uncertainty every morning, having to spit in your test and wait until you get a negative result to get on with your day? And if so for how long, a few months, a year, 10 years, forever...and that's not even thinking about the monetary cost. Want to go to work today, well that's a tenner for your contribution towards the test.