Is the U.K. in danger of becoming a police state?

[Chocolategirl1]

We have now been living with restrictions to our civil liberties for 6 months. The state now has the power to force us to dress in a certain way (face coverings), to restrict our right to family life (no more than 6 in social gatherings), to give up our personal details to retail establishments (contact details to restaurants/pubs), to give up our children’s right to a fair education (continued closures of schools following coronavirus cases), in some cases to give up our right to run a business or work (for example those businesses that can’t run properly due to social distancing etc), and now we have more police powers for enforcement of these rules and apparently “Covid Marshalls” to spy on people and control their behaviour. And there is no definite end point to any of this. None at all. There are vague “hopes” that the state will “try” to return to some kind of normal by a Christmas, but now that’s apparently dependent on regular mass testing - which in itself is a restriction on liberty. My worry is this: now that the state has realised it can control people in this way, will it give up those powers at all? Even if we get a vaccine, will the state actually give us back our freedom like it was before? And what if we never get a vaccine? People may say that all of this is justified by a virus (though a virus that has overall an extremely low fatality rate) but many governments throughout history have taken their citizens’ rights away permanently. How do we know our government won’t do the same?

you seem very angry

Are we becoming a police state? Simple answer -No. If you have ever been to China or Russia you’ll know what a ridiculous idea that is.

[quote AlecTrevelyan006]Retaining DNA and fingerprints due to national security

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/973/made?view=plain[/quote]
@AlecTrevelyan006

Have you actually read and understood this Statutory Instrument and the very limited scope it has?

mission creep

@AlecTrevelyan006

mission creep

Meaning?

Well the government are certainly winning, rather than get angry at them, let the populace get angry at each other!

Having spent a vast amount of time in Eastern Europe during communism I would say Yes.

@ItsGoingTibiaK

Mission creep is the gradual or incremental expansion of an intervention, project or mission, beyond its original scope, focus or goals, a ratchet effect spawned by initial success.

As I'm sure you knew already.

This is yet another example of the creeping powers of the state which have been brought in under the guise of protecting us from harm.

[quote AlecTrevelyan006]@ItsGoingTibiaK

Mission creep is the gradual or incremental expansion of an intervention, project or mission, beyond its original scope, focus or goals, a ratchet effect spawned by initial success.

As I'm sure you knew already.

This is yet another example of the creeping powers of the state which have been brought in under the guise of protecting us from harm.[/quote]
Sigh. What, exactly, do you think this S.I. does? What powers does it confer? In what way does it affect you and me?

Because what it most definitely doesn’t do is allow our DNA to be collected through coronavirus swabs, or for anyone’s DNA to be retained indefinitely, or even have any effect on the rights of anyone who isn’t being investigated by the police for terrorism or some other crimes related to national security.

We are far far away with any incremental mission creep from joining the likes of Belarus or Russia etc. And a million miles away from North Korea.

How many countless democratic elections and other public local authorities votes have we had in recent years. I still recall public having a say as to global trading relationships and membership of the EU neighbourhood. We even had a break or stay UK union vote for one home nation already and possibly another go soon.

I think in a tightly controlled Police state (a bit like today's Hong Kong) the public don't have much democracy or right of self determination etc etc. Despite emergency health and safety Covid emergency criminal laws (designed and implemented to save lives and so human rights etc) Covidiots are still free to have illegal mass parties and protests/demonstrations/riots etc. So seemingly not enough police to run a police state as operationally impossible. Hence any credibility to Covid test track and trace as unlike many overseas nations Brits are very personal data guarded. These things can't work if they can't use your mobile phone as necessary plus of course suddenly people have forgotten they even have a mobile phone as again can't trace your movement if you are still apparently using carrier pigeon communication systems. Not very police state like in my humble opinion. But open to be persuaded!

Jesus the posts on this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!! And IM the one who got suspended.

@Yellowbutterfly1

Having spent a vast amount of time in Eastern Europe during communism I would say Yes.

My partner is from an Eastern European country and he agrees with you.

We’re far closer to being in an unpoliced state than a Police state due to the lack of resources the Police have.

@Derbygerbil

We’re far closer to being in an unpoliced state than a Police state due to the lack of resources the Police have.

True

I'd agree with that.

Today 18:10 Derbygerbil

We’re far closer to being in an unpoliced state than a Police state due to the lack of resources the Police have.“

Exactly what I thought when I heard a Chief Constable, think it was, on PM replying, when asked if they would be going into peoples houses and breaking up excessive gatherings, “no, we simply do not have such resources”.

Ill judged comment. Tantamount to giving licence (license?, can never remember).

@LouiseNW

Today 18:10 Derbygerbil

We’re far closer to being in an unpoliced state than a Police state due to the lack of resources the Police have.“

Exactly what I thought when I heard a Chief Constable, think it was, on PM replying, when asked if they would be going into peoples houses and breaking up excessive gatherings, “no, we simply do not have such resources”.

Ill judged comment. Tantamount to giving licence (license?, can never remember).

I do think they could make an effort to be more joined up on messaging.

Eve if they don’t have the resources don’t begrudge helping out by saying we will at times or something.

MarshaBradyo

Suspect they’re angry because it seems senior officers whose forces are expected to police the updated rules are apparently rarely if ever consulted before announcements are made.

Whole damned thing is an unqualified mess.

Louise Yep

Same thing with masks, they get cross and say they won’t deal with it.

Probably same relationship government now have with Ofqual.

No.

Incompetent corrupt government with democracy influenced by Russians in order to weaken UK's standing in the world, yes.

Also, nowhere near enough Police!

[quote Roguesausage]The pandemic has created a "Golden opportunity" for the World Economic Forum to start The Great Reset. It's a plan to reset society in every way, more people will be working from home, on line education and a digital currency. It's presented as a climate emergency.

Every country is part of it. There has been no discussion with the public and no vote.

This is not a website created by a deranged conspiracy theorist from his bedroom.Its right there on the World Economic Forum.

Google The Great Reset. And the fourth industrial revolution. People need to be aware of this.

www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/06/theres-nothing-new-about-this-new-normal-heres-why/[/quote]
How did you come to this conclusion from the link you provided? What do you disagree with that is written on that WEF page?

[quote meditrina]That is an extremely disturbing erosion of our human rights

The human right to health is one of the very important ones.

Government are not only allowed, they are obliged, to take steps for the “prevention, treatment and control of epidemic, endemic, occupational and other diseases.”

What then follows is how to ensure that the steps required to uphold thus right are necessary and proportionate

www.hrw.org/news/2020/03/19/human-rights-dimensions-covid-19-response[/quote]
Great. So given that they are legally responsible to do that can you explain how it's ok that since they simulated a pandemic in 2016 - which showed the UK was woefully underprepared - they did nothing to act on even one of the recommendations from their own exercise? A pandemic has been top of the national risk register in terms of likelihood and impact for a long time. Why was there zero preparation for it? Pretty much zero money spent on having the systems in place for what was almost guaranteed to happen at some point, while billions are spent on pointless wars etc. Any ideas?

@Nikori

I seem to remember that the governments initial plan was herd immunity; let’s not close schools and businesses and even though many people will die, we’ll get through it. This plan was met with outrage and the government was pushed into closing schools and implementing shutdowns. I have no problems with the government saying don’t meet in groups of more than 6, what I’m concerned about is that I don’t think the government should be instructing the police to fine and arrest people for breaking this rule. Even though it is a simple rule, many people are very confused about what it means in relation to previous rules, for example about mixing households and bubbles.

Please name a virus for which herd immunity has been achieved by just letting it run fife through the population, with no vaccine?

Answer: it has never happened. "Herd immunity" has only ever been achieved with a vaccine, and sometimes that is not even possible.