Is the U.K. in danger of becoming a police state?

[Chocolategirl1]

We have now been living with restrictions to our civil liberties for 6 months. The state now has the power to force us to dress in a certain way (face coverings), to restrict our right to family life (no more than 6 in social gatherings), to give up our personal details to retail establishments (contact details to restaurants/pubs), to give up our children’s right to a fair education (continued closures of schools following coronavirus cases), in some cases to give up our right to run a business or work (for example those businesses that can’t run properly due to social distancing etc), and now we have more police powers for enforcement of these rules and apparently “Covid Marshalls” to spy on people and control their behaviour. And there is no definite end point to any of this. None at all. There are vague “hopes” that the state will “try” to return to some kind of normal by a Christmas, but now that’s apparently dependent on regular mass testing - which in itself is a restriction on liberty. My worry is this: now that the state has realised it can control people in this way, will it give up those powers at all? Even if we get a vaccine, will the state actually give us back our freedom like it was before? And what if we never get a vaccine? People may say that all of this is justified by a virus (though a virus that has overall an extremely low fatality rate) but many governments throughout history have taken their citizens’ rights away permanently. How do we know our government won’t do the same?

@SheepandCow

How is valuing lives and protecting the economy a police state? The vast majority of the Australian public are very supportive of the sensible measures taken to limit the spread of a disease. Australia doesn't want mass deaths, loads of disabled Long Covid sufferers, and long lasting economic damage. Hardly a police state!

There’s valuing lives and then there’s hysterical. The press reporting and public reaction to Covid is out of proportion to the threat in Australia, IMO.

How long has Melbourne been in lockdown? It’s extraordinary. The mental health problems that must be causing. And what if there’s no vaccine? Can Australia really maintain its cruel, economically destructive border policies forever?

I’m not advocating the American approach, but countries like South Korea have kept the virus under control without resorting to the sort of authoritarian extremism seen in Australia.

Don't worry. Australians watch the international news. They've seen the dire situation in the UK and very unhysterically accepted necessary temporary measures. They've avoided suffering the terrible effect on mental health from mass bereavement and ongoing risk of permanent disability. They also get to avoid the extent of economic damage we now face.
There almost certainly will be a vaccine. Scientists have already said the Russian one has been effective so far.

For those saying look at Australia, you do know apart from Victoria most of Australia is pretty much Covid free? I am in Western Australia, and while our borders are closed, our life is pretty normal. Very few people are wearing masks, work, school, pubs, restaurants are all open. We can have crowds of 30,000 people watching sport in the stadium. Life is more or less normal. We currently have 3 cases of Covid, and have had zero community transmission in four months. We feel safe. If that's a police state I'll take it over the nonsense rules people in the UK are having to follow any time!

And as for Victoria, they are down now to around 50 cases a day, give it a little more time in lockdown and they will be in a much better position too.

@SheepandCow

Don't worry. Australians watch the international news. They've seen the dire situation in the UK and very unhysterically accepted necessary temporary measures. They've avoided suffering the terrible effect on mental health from mass bereavement and ongoing risk of permanent disability. They also get to avoid the extent of economic damage we now face. There almost certainly will be a vaccine. Scientists have already said the Russian one has been effective so far.

Just read today somewhere that the russian one was only 10% effective in small phase 2 trials. It's more about propaganda than anything else.

I really get disheartened by these type of threads. I grew up in an actively socialist state and lived in a worn torn country. What people are dubbing as a police state is nowhere near.

What it actually is, is an idiotic, undemocratic, corrupt government. There is a huge difference!

And to declare epidemic countermeasure to be police-state like is simply ludacris!

@SheepandCow

Don't worry. Australians watch the international news. They've seen the dire situation in the UK and very unhysterically accepted necessary temporary measures. They've avoided suffering the terrible effect on mental health from mass bereavement and ongoing risk of permanent disability. They also get to avoid the extent of economic damage we now face. There almost certainly will be a vaccine. Scientists have already said the Russian one has been effective so far.

The dire situation in the U.K.? Are you based here or in Oz?

I’m Australian, but live here in the U.K., I’m in constant contact with my family (some of whom are in Melbourne) and I’m currently pleased to be here and not there.

The loss of liberty and freedom of movement is not worth it when weighed against a 0.3-0.7% overall death rate (and a 0.06% chance in my age group).

I’m all for taking strong measures but Australia has got the balance wrong IMO.

@alwayscrashinginthesamecar1
My family are in South Australia. I know they're very happy with how it's been handled. (They're very worried for the family over here in the UK).

No it is not. The mere suggestion shows that you have no idea what a police state actually looks like.
The Uk populace are being way too noncompliant with no consequences being imposed on them, to merit the suggestion of a police state.
A "police state" suggest that you would be carted off by the military, to a jail whose location your family were not informed of and tortured, before being buried at an unmarked site. Or that you will be beaten in the street by religious enforcers for not having your face or body covered.
Get a grip!!!

@TinkersTailor

Ah I see what you mean, yes it would provide DNA, but as far as I know they are destroyed as potentially hazardous clinical waste after testing. The UK also has strict rules about DNA being held on a database, only people convicted of a criminal offence or a police caution have their DNA kept indefinitely otherwise it has to be destroyed after a certain time period.

I'd much rather comply with the now enforced rules re social distancing than go back into full lockdown. Lockdown suppressed Covid-19 but we all knew it wouldn't go away. Yes, only 1%
will die from Covid-19, but it still can be a evil illness to catch. I'd rather avoid it.

Now we know more about the virus and controlling localist peaks is the way to go. I'll wear my face mask in shops and on public transport, go and see my family & friends, eat out in a restaurant, go to the cinema, go and exercise, go on holiday, pretty much as I did before March. Ok I can't have a proper night out in a pub, but I'll still see my everyone I want to, just in smaller groups.

I have no problem with sharing my contact details when I go to a pub, restaurant, or the hairdresser, why would I? What the hell would anyone want to do with that info rather than inform me if I had been close to someone who had tested positive and request that I too go for a test?

Most importantly, we need to do all of this to ensure we don't turn to worst case scenario prior to lockdown. Remember, when our old and sick were punted out of hospital back to care homes where the virus rampaged through them and our elderly were left to die? Where our schools were closed and our Young were left without education or social interaction with their peers? I'd take this so called by some 'police state' any day than return to March / April / May. Not to mention of course the effect that a proper lockdown again would have on businesses and jobs.

I'm no fan of this government, and I'm sure I'll be called a sheeple (and probably worse) but while I think the government have got so so many things wrong through this pandemic, actually now, they are striking the right chord to try to avoid a full lockdown again.

EmMac7, I am in Australia, but my folks are still in the UK as are many of my friends (also in Ireland). They are all telling me that they are having an absolutely shit time, and they are very jealous of us going out and about leading practically normal lives in the sunshine. Our State Premier who made the call to keep the borders shut, against the wishes of the Federal government, currently has an unprecedented 91% approval rating precisely because people feel his hard line approach to keeping the border firmly closed is keeping us all safe. Oh, and our economy is doing pretty well too. So I think most people here would disagree with you.

@LEELULUMPKIN

Yes. I am starting to feel like a frog in a pan of tepid water.

Welcome, some of us have been feeling like this since March.

@alwayscrashinginthesamecar1

EmMac7, I am in Australia, but my folks are still in the UK as are many of my friends (also in Ireland). They are all telling me that they are having an absolutely shit time, and they are very jealous of us going out and about leading practically normal lives in the sunshine. Our State Premier who made the call to keep the borders shut, against the wishes of the Federal government, currently has an unprecedented 91% approval rating precisely because people feel his hard line approach to keeping the border firmly closed is keeping us all safe. Oh, and our economy is doing pretty well too. So I think most people here would disagree with you.

I’m not arguing that Australians don’t approve of the madness, that’s kind of the point. Australians have always been too relaxed about giving up their liberty.

The basic point is you can achieve similar results without the draconian policies being pursued there. Don’t compare yourselves to a country like the U.K. that has got plenty of things wrong. Compare the Oz government’s approach to that of South Korea, or Japan.

My point is one of imbalance ]m not saying the U.K. is better (although as I said I’m glad I’m here not there, because I couldn’t handle the mental strain of the endless months in lockdown that Melbournians are suffering).

Also the Australian economy isn’t doing so well. There was a 7% slump in GDP last quarter.

That’s with barely enduring any cases yet...

No.

I was talking about the Western Australian economy. And I agree that things are tough in Melbourne, I have friends there who are finding it very hard. But while it is hard for them, at least they will be able to come out of lock down into a much safer environment than most of the rest of the world. Perhaps South Korea or Japan have got a better approach, but I'm pretty happy with what we've got. I just thought it was a bit rich people slagging off the Australia for being a police state when we have so much more freedom here in our daily life. Of course, if you want to leave the state that's different, but given the choice between an unfettered daily life, safety, and no travel, or freedom to travel, but constantly changing rules, regulations, random lockdowns etc....well its a bit of a no brainer I reckon.

Our rules are lax and unreliable. Countries that have imposed serious rules like Korea and Malaysia have seen very low infection and death rates. I hate this govt and believe they are corrupt but that has nothing to do with strict COVID rules which they have not been doing at all.

@alwayscrashinginthesamecar1

I was talking about the Western Australian economy. And I agree that things are tough in Melbourne, I have friends there who are finding it very hard. But while it is hard for them, at least they will be able to come out of lock down into a much safer environment than most of the rest of the world. Perhaps South Korea or Japan have got a better approach, but I'm pretty happy with what we've got. I just thought it was a bit rich people slagging off the Australia for being a police state when we have so much more freedom here in our daily life. Of course, if you want to leave the state that's different, but given the choice between an unfettered daily life, safety, and no travel, or freedom to travel, but constantly changing rules, regulations, random lockdowns etc....well its a bit of a no brainer I reckon.

Will it be safer, though? Until there’s a good vaccine none of us are truly safe. I’d argue that believing you’ve essentially eliminated the threat — as people did in Victoria while it spread to thousands silently before being noticed — is dangerous too. And look at NZ, where they still haven’t figured how their small outbreak started.

I wasn’t trying to “slag off” Australia. Just to put the experience of Brits in context. Even prior to Covid Australia was many times the police state the U.K. is. There’s just a greater police presence. I’ve never seen a booze bus here for example. ;)

You forgot to add the snoopers charter, with all your internet browsing history, etc available to be viewed by 48 separate institutions including amongst others the welsh ambulance service and food standards agency...

I don't want to derail the thread any further. But of course none of us knows how this whole thing is going to pan out. We are certainly safe as we can be in WA for now though And mumsnet is full of people happy to slag odd Australia as I'm sure you are aware, but I accept that you aren't one of them, my apologies for that. Your point about the booze bus is a little odd, though. Don't you think they are a good thing? And I know there are plenty of opportunities to be breatho'd in the UK as well, but surely that is a good thing and hardly an indicator of a police state?

In spain a lady arrested for going surfing. I'd put that more as police state.

Er, no. She was arrested for breaking quarantine, having being diagnosed with Covid-19, after taking her son to school and then going surfing. Where she refused to get out of the water, and then to put on a mask, despite being positive for the virus. Charming.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Police state?
No.
The government has cocked a lot up with this virus, and I'm certainly no Tory fan, but we were given guidelines and asked to follow them to allow the virus to spread slowly, hopefully slowly enough so that the people ill at any one time could have access to treatment without hospitals becoming overwhelmed, and then halted by the discovery of a vaccine.
A lot of people stuck two fingers up to the guidelines because enjoying themselves was far, far more important after being in lockdown than anything else, half price food was seen as too important than social distancing, showing how edgy they are by not wearing a mask where it's been made mandatory (and I don't mean people genuinely unable to wear one, I mean those who are the smug, arsey types who go against anything just because they can) and you've got bus drivers, train conducted, shop, pub and restaurant staff trying to police these idiots who laugh in their face and carry on.
So if marshals actually have some bloody power to slap down the fuck wits who have deliberately gone Against the guidelines because they're so cool then good, because I can count on one hand the amount of police officers I've seen in my area in the last month, I live in a popular seaside town and it's been busier than any other year, and even without Covid and the guidelines even just the parking and the litter, the drink fuelled idiocy has been ridiculous.
'We' didn't follow the guidelines, so now they're laws. Had we stuck with the guidelines and you occasionally broke one or two, well no Biggie really, because there weren't any concequences, but that's not what happened, and now there's concequences if you break them and rightly so.
The public have behaved like a bunch of unruly children, shouting about their rights but totally and utterly ignoring their responsibilities, and then when it all goes tits up it's someone else's fault.

[quote Notfeelinggreattoday]@Nikori many countries have had large fines for breaking rules re : covid [/quote]
But, they are talking about arresting people. If a family of 5 visit grandparents, they can be arrested. That is an extremely disturbing erosion of our human rights.

I get the frustration but it's so confusing. A lot of people can't understand bubbles and the government is constantly U-turning.

It's a very worrying development.

I'm living in HK - a country literally on the brink of becoming a police state given the National Security Law and cancelled elections, I can assure you the UK is far from becoming a police state.

Ridiculous rules, appalling government, and out of control media - both mainstream and social - yep you've got all that. But you're nowhere near being a police state.

The UK response has been crap, compounded by years of a lack of investment in health and education and an increase in 'I'm alright Jack' attitude. There was a thread a few days ago about the DCs future all angst about closed schools, I really hope our DC look at the political shambles and social attitudes of the world in Covid and that's the main thing that changes in their future.