When do we end lockdowns and let people live a full life

[frasersmummy]

It's looking ever more likely more cities including Glasgow will go back into lockdown..

Mainly from what I can see to stop people meeting indoors

There has to come a point when mental health is as important as physical health.. Keeping loved ones apart does noones mental health any. Good

So where do we draw the line.. There has to be a point when lockdown is just wrong.

For me it's wrong now.. Enough of keeping friends and families apart

I think we should now go for a Swedish style approach. Hand hygiene, keep distance in shops etc, protect care homes and the vulnerable, and be trusted to act like adults and assess risks. People have been hugely compliant, but the tide is turning and I think that addressing people in a different way is necessary. Lose the terror message and explain how to live with the virus without ruining lives and the economy.

Lockdown was fine when billed as protecting the NHS but things have to move on. Deaths from anything are a tragedy for relatives and friends but people need to live, not just exist.

@WouldBeGood

I think we should now go for a Swedish style approach. Hand hygiene, keep distance in shops etc, protect care homes and the vulnerable, and be trusted to act like adults and assess risks. People have been hugely compliant, but the tide is turning and I think that addressing people in a different way is necessary. Lose the terror message and explain how to live with the virus without ruining lives and the economy.

Lockdown was fine when billed as protecting the NHS but things have to move on. Deaths from anything are a tragedy for relatives and friends but people need to live, not just exist.

I feel like this is where we are. The terror message has been dropped and replaced with go to school and go back to work.

Where do you think the message is coming from? Is it just overhang of what we heard before or still in the media?

Well said@WouldBeGood

@MarshaBradyo I think it’s mainly the media, and social media, combined with a feeling that government isn’t clear about the path out of this?

Would I do feel it too. It’s hard to pinpoint as I know the government is also pushing school / work. Hospitalisations are incredibly low though.

I don’t know what Sweden is doing which Uk isn’t at the moment. Our children are going back to school and people are slowly going back to work. UK cities are much more over crowded than Swedish cities so it is a poor comparison.
Sweden has ban on large gatherings as well as official travel advise is to avoid travelling to certain countries which includes the Uk at the moment.

I also think the Swedish population is generally speaking more compliant and society more geared towards acting in the interest of the “greater good”.

@MarshaBradyo I think focus should be on that now, not positive tests.

@Jaxhog I'm not feeble. I have a serious mental illness, a challenging child with SEND and I have very seriously considered suicide 3 times in the last 6 months, but I am not feeble.

When you suggest u at people struggling are feeble, then you show that you don't have any understanding of other people's mh.

Well said @BreathlessCommotion I also have serious MH problems, a DH with limited life expectancy and his own MH issues, and I'm a full time carer for DM. I happen to think that for people like you, me and several thousand others, it's actually pretty fucking important that we prioritise our MH above the well-being - or even the life - of 'people' as an anonymous collective. I love the way that concern for people outside our immediate family is suddenly supposed to be our number one priority in life - it's an attitude that's been remarkably noticeable by it's absence in the UK for the last thirty years or so. I wonder where Jaxhog's concerns were directed before Covid came along.

But I have heard so much guff on MN about people's 'MH' being affected by not being able to go to raves or beaches or coffee shops.
Is that what people have actually said, or what you have inferred from it? I think peoples mental health has been affected by not being able to be close to family and friends, not being able to relax when in public places (constantly "staying alert"), bombardment from the media of how there will be a second wave any minute or being told that this is the "new normal" and will go on forever. Peoples mental health has been affected by medical procedures and appointments being cancelled or postponed indefinitely, leaving them in limbo while their conditions get worse.

A wholly normal life is unrealistic for the foreseeable future. And I know this is really hard for so many.

As much as life might not be normal, I do think can take steps to live a full life in a "risk sensible" way.

For example, our daughter has just gone back to school today and, as much as I am apprehensive about the risk over the upcoming winter, I do feel reassured that cases are very low in our area at the moment.

However, I would feel different if/when cases rise.

While I am entirely biased, I do think it helps to know what is happening locally. If cases rapidly rise in our local council, we will make different choices: we may take our daughter out of school, we definitely wouldn't meet my elderly mother in law, even outdoors. But at the moment, within government guidelines, we are living fairly normally albeit predominantly outdoors (plus masks/handgel/sd etc).

I was worried sick last term when school reopened about sending our daughter back until I realised there were virtually no cases in our area. It put my mind at rest. But I am also fully aware that things can change incredibly quickly so I resorted to monitoring cases in our area every day.

Now, full disclosure, I am biased as I set up a coronavirus data service that i think is amazing (!). I am really proud of it and so many have found it has helped them day to day.

If it helps, you are more than welcome to sign up. You can sign up to get daily emails of the number of cases in your local council to your inbox everyday. So you know what's happening on your doorstep.

You can sign up here: www.covidmessenger.com

We have found it has helped enormously. And the one element that I hadn't really anticipated is that it has meant that I know when to worry less. I will always worry a bit. But it has just meant I am not worrying excessively when the risk is really tiny in my area. I am sure it will change over the winter, but for now, I know not to worry too much.

Why is Trafford battered by this on/off thing and it never touches London?

@littleowl1 that's great but nine of my my issues are about me or my dc or dh catching covid. I know that is very unlikely and if they do get it they have a high chance of a good outcome (I had it myself in March and they didn't get it).

So none of that helps my mh. What would help is some support in getting my school refusing child back to school so I can work at home properly, maybe knowing that the school won't close again or I won't have to spend 2 weeks locked up with them again, the meltdowns, the violence.

I’m so sorry you are going through this @BreathlessCommotion. Coronavirus and lockdown have been so hard on so many people. I truly hope they find a vaccine or a solution soon. And I hope you get the support you need and deserve.

Sending you all my best wishes. I know they can’t fix it but I’m thinking of you and wish I could help. Hoping for you that things get better. H xxxxx

Deaths from anything are a tragedy for relatives and friends but people need to live, not just exist. Bit difficult to "live" if you are one of the Covid deaths.

Whatever way you look at it, it comes to a balance between one person's right to "live" and another person's right to stay alive.

@randomer

Why is Trafford battered by this on/off thing and it never touches London?

??? London still (so far) has suffered the most deaths. It's been very very badly hit, economically too.

Many experts believe cases are lower at the moment because it's already been hit so badly. More people have immunity. Whether that lasts is unknown. I've heard immunity might only last around six months?

I don't believe cases are actually that low in London either. It's strange considering it's where one of the world's busiest airports is situated. Passenger numbers might be down but there's still thousands daily. There also seems to be daily protests for basically anything you can possibly protest about going on there. So many mass gatherings with most travelling on public transport is certainly one hell of a risk.

I wonder how many tests are being done in London? Also how many cases of apparently unrelated pneumonia, heart attacks, or strokes (all of which can be caused by Covid).

This is an article by Thaddeus Michaels, who is a data scientist.

hectordrummond.com/2020/08/23/thaddeus-michaels-why-did-the-whole-world-lose-its-nerve/

A few things to make clear up front: I am not ideologically opposed to state intervention in areas of public health; I believe vaccines work; I believe Covid-19 is a real, somewhat dangerous disease which emerged in China in late 2019 and can be fatal; I’m not a Brexiteer or libertarian.

But I believe a form of mass hysteria has spread through society in relation to the Covid-19 pandemic. Rational thought about costs and benefits has evaporated, and we have done more harm than good in our response.

Instead of a conspiracy theory, here is a plausible ‘good faith’ explanation for why this may have happened.

....

@AlecTrevelyan006 yes. That seems reasonable.

That’s a very insightful article, thanks for posting.

What’s done is done. I’m most interested in how we move on from this.

There's another reason, y'know. 'Normality' wasn't that great for many people, and given a break from it many of us are in no hurry to return to it.

@littleowl1

Thank you for the email service. I have signed up.

@everythingisginandroses

There's another reason, y'know. 'Normality' wasn't that great for many people, and given a break from it many of us are in no hurry to return to it.

My normality was fucking brilliant and I want it back!

@AlecTrevelyan006

That was a good article with a lot of intelligent analysis and insight. There’s an enormous amount we need to learn from our experience of Covid, but one of the most challenging is how you deal with what is, in essence, an unknown quantity as a society, which is what Covid largely was back in March, and it would be wrong to judge our actions back then by the knowledge we have now. The next pandemic, when it comes. will bring fresh challenges as it will likely have different characteristics to Covid. A society that embraces honesty, measured responses and scientific method, alongside politicians that Inspire trust and act competently would be a good start.

To be honest Sweden is doing about the same as we are right now. Just with smaller class sizes and a socialist system instead of a capitalist one that cut so many areas’ funding to the bone and worsened our pandemic response.

My son is back at school now and won't see his 90+ grandparents because he feels school isn't safe and he doesn't want to pass anything on to them.