When do we end lockdowns and let people live a full life

[frasersmummy]

It's looking ever more likely more cities including Glasgow will go back into lockdown..

Mainly from what I can see to stop people meeting indoors

There has to come a point when mental health is as important as physical health.. Keeping loved ones apart does noones mental health any. Good

So where do we draw the line.. There has to be a point when lockdown is just wrong.

For me it's wrong now.. Enough of keeping friends and families apart

I'm struggling to understand what the "get back to normal" argument is. I genuinely don't get it. Does someone have a well thought out and logical idea of an alternative to what we are doing (other than the close the borders idea).

I think I see 2 arguments, but I don't see the logic in them:

1: People who think that the virus is just far, far less deadly now, and therefore we can ignore it and treat it the same way as we do the common cold, and well see a very low level of deaths. I desperately wish this was the case but haven't seen any evidence of it, even though I've read the links that have been posted in this thread. I have seen evidence that less people overall are dying, which are attributed to social distancing measures, and therefore I believe that the number of deaths would go up if we were to just "go back to normal".

1. People who think that we should just let people die of covid, because people die of other things (cancer, suicide) and therefore we shouldn't be trading one against the other. But how would this even work? With no measures in place people would be dying in the streets because they couldn't even get an ambulance. Would we just step over them? Would we just turn anyone who had covid away from hospital? Because if we didn't, how would we have capacity to deal with any other illnesses?

Am I missing something? What am I missing that makes "get back to normal" a workable option in anyone's opinion? All I can see is either wishful thinking (the virus just kills less people now), or miss-calculation (just let people die, because that won't affect the NHS at all).

I guess there is the third argument, which seems to be "all you care about is covid and not people with other problems", but surely it is obvious that the "other problems" are caused by trying to deal with covid. No one is saying lets stay in lockdown because it is so much fun.

I think the answer to your question is, as soon as that is possible.

Right now lifting restrictions wouldn't allow a full or normal life for anyone, the resulting exponential growth of the virus and its knock on effects would prevent that. When we reach a point where lifting the restrictions will allow more of a normal life, rather than even less of one due to a surge in infection, it will be done.

I am a bit surprised that at this point you are still imagining that normal life would be resuming if restrictions were lifted. If that were the case, what are you thinking the restrictions are for?

Of course there is debate about what the most effective measures are.

I would say we are atill locked down unless you cant leave your house except for exercise or food.

Otherwise life is at leat around 75% normal, I can go watch movies, go to the gym and swimming, go to shops that are open, meet friends, go out for dinner or drinks.

@RegularHumanBartender

I think really what has happened is a new, complex, serious illness has arrived and we don't know what to do

But it absolutely is not a "serious illness" for the vast vast majority of people.

It is serious for a considerable number, c. 10% for long Covid.

Measles is treated seriously too when we have putbreaks, even though most of the population is vaccinated.

We don't just ignore illnesses that don't kill everyone who catches it

This is rationalisation (an unhealthy response)

If meeting indoors is the tipping point, then obviously there's outdoors. We've only had two people in our house since lockdown, one a builder for an emergency, the other my SIL who dropped something off for DD's birthday and it was pouring with rain (neither of us were comfortable with the indoors thing so she sat 3m away on a disinfected chair!). I've been in my Mum's porch twice (pretty big I admit) while she was at back of lounge, but otherwise we've seen eachother outside, meal sat as far as possible apart or walk. No big deal, we're happy to wrap ourselves up outside or go for a walk (even my elderly mother!).

@HappenedXo

Well, the problem seems to be that the politicians don’t want to look at the hard questions.

For instance: how to protect care homes when the pandemic (being seasonal) returns in winter? Don’t discharge residents from hospital without testing- that’s easy. But how about sourcing PPE? Who should pay for PPE in care homes? How will this affect business models? Should staff be required to work in only one home during the upsurge? How would this be enforced - by a regulator? The police? Should employers be required to give staff contractual sick pay? Should care homes & staff be quarantined? When should residents with Covid be admitted to hospital? In what circumstances (if any) should treatment for the very elderly with Covid be restricted to palliative care?

Hospitals- should we be building more Covid hospitals, along the lines of the old fever hospitals? Where? What should their architecture be (for instance all one storey, no lift shafts)? How would we staff them? If we don’t have these hospitals, how will we avoid hospital transmission? Does the architecture of modern hospitals potentially exacerbate transmission?

And I’m sure there are very hard questions about what the data shows us are non age related vulnerabilities- ethnicity, diabetes, weight.

Point is that these are hard issues. Politicians want to avoid them. Instead they focus on lockdown and silly requirements about bubbles. Arranging the benches on the deck of the Titanic.

In a globally connected world total suppression isn’t possible - the virus will keep on reappearing, and we’ll have no answers to these questions. We’ll just lurch from one lockdown to another, because we’ve got no strategy.

Lockdown is basically now a dangerous diversion which enables politicians to avoid addressing really important issues about how we handle the virus. They just can’t admit that we need to learn to live with it in a way that minimises disruption to society.

Great post 👏

I agree. This virus has been horrendous but Hospital admissions are way down despite a rise in cases and deaths are in single figures.

I think as long as the hospital admissions Stay low and deaths remain low we should get back to normal now.

@Elephantday82

I agree. This virus has been horrendous but Hospital admissions are way down despite a rise in cases and deaths are in single figures.

I think as long as the hospital admissions Stay low and deaths remain low we should get back to normal now.

I agree. But some people )including the government) are clearly happy to live like this permanently.

@NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite

Keeping loved ones apart does noones mental health any. Good Not everyone is going to suffer poor mental health as a result of Coronavirus restrictions, even if they can't see their families. I don't feel there are any restrictions that impact me on major level now.

What? People have. I have, I went into mental health crisis last week and nearly killed myself. Because of lockdown and the effects on me of trying to manage chikdren, work, never being alone, no support networks. People have killed themselves, including young people directly as a result of lockdown.

Just because it doesn't effect you, doesn't mean it won't effect others.

Again. We urgently need better funded mental health services. For people like Breathless AND for those who are suffering badly and feeling suicidal because of lockdown easing. Both are equally deserving of help and empathy. Which means not telling the second group to 'just live with it'.

@RegularHumanBartender

I think really what has happened is a new, complex, serious illness has arrived and we don't know what to do

But it absolutely is not a "serious illness" for the vast vast majority of people.

How do you know? None of the experts do yet. Long Covid is only now emerging as an issue. We don't yet know how widespread or permanent the lung, heart, and brain damage will end up being.

Unless you're a time traveller from the future or have a genuine crystal ball, you can't know.

I think many (most?) people would agree that we need better funded mental health services. But the way to ensure better funding is not to shut down the economy.

amicissimma Agreed. We need to follow Australia and NZ. Temporary border restrictions so that we can get the economy moving again. Hospitals, schools, shops, concerts, etc all back to normal within 1-2 months.
Helps the environment too.

We aren't very good as a society at talking about death but we should be given it happens to everyone. A lot of people seem to have looked at this pandemic and thought about the reality of how some die for the first time ever

I totally agree with this. People die alone every day, for one reason or another, and as you say most people don't give it a single thought - suddenly it's become the most awful thing ever. Which it's not. My mother died six months ago in a rest home - she was having a cup of tea in bed, half an hour later when the carer returned she was dead. Nothing to do with covid, or lockdowns, it's just the reality of what happens.

I think families often like to be there if they can though, that's just down to human love and kindness.

Where you can't be there because it is quick seems different.

The relatives of those who died with Covid have legitimate feelings imo.

I think families often like to be there if they can though, that's just down to human love and kindness.

Indeed, but often they can't be due to being far away, not being able to get there in time, people dying in accidents etc. Others wait until a relative leaves the room and then quietly slip away. Just making the point that not everyone gets to die with their loved ones around them, but people have not given it much thought before now, when suddenly it's the worst thing which could happen.

I think some of the Covid deaths were terrible. I can't get into whether they are the 'worst' thing that could happen, because we can't rank all deaths and only be sad about the single worst one.

But the people I know whose relatives died of Covid were very upset by the fact they couldn't see their relatives before they were even close to dying iyswim. It wasn't very fast, just alone and in so many cases shocking.

My mum worked in end of life care, so I have heard/thought about death lots, plus family/friend deaths of different types of course. I still think it has been very distressing for relatives.

@eaglejulesk

We aren't very good as a society at talking about death but we should be given it happens to everyone. A lot of people seem to have looked at this pandemic and thought about the reality of how some die for the first time ever

I totally agree with this. People die alone every day, for one reason or another, and as you say most people don't give it a single thought - suddenly it's become the most awful thing ever. Which it's not. My mother died six months ago in a rest home - she was having a cup of tea in bed, half an hour later when the carer returned she was dead. Nothing to do with covid, or lockdowns, it's just the reality of what happens.

So, because your mother died alone and unexpectedly you think others should feel the same as you?

In my culture, dying alone, especially leaving your elders to die alone, is extremely taboo. Even if it's just one person, to be there for them is an honour. But guess what, an unexpected lonely death does not count because nothing can be done about that. If a family member is sick, you do what you can to make them feel they aren't alone. My own grandmother died minutes after clawing at my hand because she knew she was dying (she was screaming this) and the nurses needed me to step back to readjust her in the bed. I hadn't left the ward but she stopped breathing and the doctors rushed in and pulled the curtains and the nurses led me away as they thought it best I didn't hear all that (I don't blame them). This troubles me until this day. You don't forget fearful eyes.

Maybe your people have only just woken up to this thought, but don't come at them for realising it's probably not what they'd want for themselves or their loved ones.

Read about what happened during the Spanish flu when everyone thought it was getting milder and lifted restrictions. The answer to the original question is not yet.

So, because your mother died alone and unexpectedly you think others should feel the same as you?

That wasn't what I said, I was merely pointing out that people die alone every day, for various reasons. People talking about covid deaths during lockdown are acting as though it is something that never happens in normal times.

Also, I'm not in the UK, but people who are dying in rest homes and hospitals where I live are not left to die alone. Even if their family can't be with them someone will stay with them - they certainly aren't just abandoned.

I have had enough and think it is nonsense now. I have followed the roolz so far but I will not be stopping seeing my parents indoors. They are old. They want to see DGC.

Wish NS and the government would give some thought to how they actually enforce some of the rules i.e. the quarantine one. It is so easy to get around this by lying about where you have been / when you got back and some families are just sending kids to school regardless.

Also wish NS would stop insisting that indoor meet ups are the issue when there has clearly been transmission in workplaces, pubs and restaurants but this is clearly being ignored because of the economy.

And sad though some of the deaths are, I think we need to balance this against the mental health of the population, especially our children and young people

The relatives of those who died with Covid have legitimate feelings imo

You're right we do, and the sooner the restrictions on households meeting, gatherings of people in a venue (for a wake that has not happened yet despite mum being gone for 17 weeks) and other things involved in saying a last goodbye are lifted the better. We can't move on whilst all of those things are prohibited for the sake of others. My dad still has stuff of mum's at his house because we can't get anyone to come and collect it (medical bed, stair lift, etc). We, and many families like us, have sacrificed enough now including our mental health, we need "closure" but we're not allowed it. It feels like the government and the country are sticking 2 fingers up and saying "fuck you, deal with it, as long as we don't get it who cares what you're going through".

Read about what happened during the Spanish flu when everyone thought it was getting milder and lifted restrictions. The answer to the original question is not yet

How is this a comparison when, as we've been told countless times Covid is nothing like flu?

I have the strong feeling that there are a large body of people who want this situation to last as long as possible so they can be judgemental of others, so others don't have a full enjoyment of life.

@mertyey

I have the strong feeling that there are a large body of people who want this situation to last as long as possible so they can be judgemental of others, so others don't have a full enjoyment of life.

You are 100% spot on in this.

@mertyey

I have the strong feeling that there are a large body of people who want this situation to last as long as possible so they can be judgemental of others, so others don't have a full enjoyment of life.

I don’t know, maybe, there were certainly a lot of people who enjoyed all the drama of lockdown in a rather odd way.

But surely you don’t think that we’d all be having a fully enjoyable life right now if the government said “fuck it, let’s scrap all the restrictions and let the virus go”? You don’t think that countries like Brazil where the virus is out of control are just like they were last year?

The countries that have got the closest to being back to normal are generally the ones that have done the most to suppress the virus. Nobody’s got it to go away by just ignoring it.