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Original poster

When do we end lockdowns and let people live a full life

334 replies

frasersmummy · 31/08/2020 21:20

It's looking ever more likely more cities including Glasgow will go back into lockdown..

Mainly from what I can see to stop people meeting indoors

There has to come a point when mental health is as important as physical health.. Keeping loved ones apart does noones mental health any. Good

So where do we draw the line.. There has to be a point when lockdown is just wrong.

For me it's wrong now.. Enough of keeping friends and families apart

OP posts:
trappedsincesundaymorn · 02/09/2020 15:11

@Jaxhog

People die. All the time.

Wow! Just wow! So we just let them die, even when we can do a few simple things to make sure this is as few as possible? Does your 'MH' really trump my life??

On behalf of my family I'd like to apologise for not being mentally resilient enough to cope with my mother dying from covid (so you can stick your "people dying" because some of us know all about that thank you!), by being forced apart and not being able to grieve properly. How much more do you want families like mine to sacrifice for your well being? Everybody comments on the deaths but nobody cares how those of us having to deal with it are coping. We're just left to get on with it and bugger the consequences to our health, both physical and mental, as long as everybody else's needs are catered for.
BamboozledandBefuddled · 02/09/2020 15:19

@Jaxhog

People die. All the time.

Wow! Just wow! So we just let them die, even when we can do a few simple things to make sure this is as few as possible? Does your 'MH' really trump my life??

From my perspective, yes, absolutely. I don't know you (and from some of the comments you've made here, I don't think I'd like you much if I did know you). So I would rank (in no particular order) my mental health, the physical and mental health of DH, and DM's physical health significantly higher than your life or well-being. All of those things are being impacted by the UK response to Covid, and unlike many on here, I've never pretended that anonymous people have the same importance to me as my immediate family.
MrsMcMuffins · 02/09/2020 15:23

And that is why none of us as individuals are in charge of managing the UK’s response to a global pandemic. I seem to remember that it was also about protecting frontline workers and those who had to go to work for example in hospitals. Many doctors and nurses died.

TheKeatingFive · 02/09/2020 15:30

I seem to remember that it was also about protecting frontline workers and those who had to go to work for example in hospitals. Many doctors and nurses died.

It’s not about what happened then though, but what happens now.

If hospitals aren’t able to cope now, it’s not because of Covid. Our bigger issue will be how we fund them as tax revenues plummet. Unless all these doctors and nurses are willing to work for free.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 02/09/2020 15:35

What situation do you think we’d be in now if there had been no lockdown?

Shockingstocking · 02/09/2020 15:36

I would rank (in no particular order) my mental health, the physical and mental health of DH, and DM's physical health significantly higher than your life or well-being.

And this is why we have a government, hopefully elected by a more humane majority. So glad you are being forced to live in a moderately humane society, bam. Generally speaking, we don't make decisions about human lives based on whether we fancy the people concerned.

TheKeatingFive · 02/09/2020 15:37

Personally I’m not arguing against locking down when we did. The focus of this thread is the here and now.

BellaintheWychElm · 02/09/2020 15:37

@WiseUpJanetWeiss

What situation do you think we’d be in now if there had been no lockdown?
But this isn't about never having had a lockdown - it is about what happen now and when it should end
BamboozledandBefuddled · 02/09/2020 15:44

@Shockingstocking

I would rank (in no particular order) my mental health, the physical and mental health of DH, and DM's physical health significantly higher than your life or well-being.

And this is why we have a government, hopefully elected by a more humane majority. So glad you are being forced to live in a moderately humane society, bam. Generally speaking, we don't make decisions about human lives based on whether we fancy the people concerned.

What, never? Not at any level? If you're telling me you would save a complete stranger from a burning building before a member of your own family, then I don't happen to think that gives you any kind of moral superiority. I haven't said I have no concern for people outside my family but I'm not enough of a hypocrite to pretend that I would put my family in second place under all or any circumstances.
ChanceEncounter · 02/09/2020 15:52

@TheKeatingFive

The virus hasn't changed

That’s not true.

We know that a mutation exists and is in circulation. There’s growing scientific speculation (though no concrete proof yet) that this mutation is less deadly. The data coming out of Europe right now in terms of fatality rates would seem to back that up (though there are other factors contributing there too).

There’s lots of unknowns, but the fact that a mutation is in circulation is proven.

There's no evidence this coronavirus has mutated to make patients more or less sick.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53325771

No country yet seems to be basing what they are doing on a belief the virus is fundamentally different.

kittensarecute · 02/09/2020 15:55

@WiseUpJanetWeiss

What situation do you think we’d be in now if there had been no lockdown?
My mental health would be better and I wouldn't be considering suicide.
TheKeatingFive · 02/09/2020 15:56

There's no evidence this coronavirus has mutated to make patients more or less sick.

Yes, I said that.

However it has definitely mutated.

And there is lots of scientific speculation / circumstantial evidence that this corresponds with better outcomes. None of which has been proven yet, but watch this space.

TheKeatingFive · 02/09/2020 15:59

No country yet seems to be basing what they are doing on a belief the virus is fundamentally different.

Well they wouldn’t, would they? In an unprecedented situation we usually default to going slowly and conservatively.

Yet it can hardly be passing European governments by that their death rates have plummeted. And questioning if that’s entirely down to the other factors being discussed.

ChanceEncounter · 02/09/2020 16:02

I've never pretended that anonymous people have the same importance to me as my immediate family.

In extremis I would agree, obviously I would save my children before saving you.

But many people behave pro-socially, e.g. pay taxes, follow laws even when they won't get caught. Many wouldn't take the money from a dropped purse even if they wouldn't be seen.

Ultimately people are either pro-social or they are not. That's up to the individual.

ChanceEncounter · 02/09/2020 16:05

My mental health would be better and I wouldn't be considering suicide.

I am really sorry to read this comment @kittensarecute

GoldenOmber · 02/09/2020 16:09

Yes mental health is very important, the impact of this year on a lot of people’s mental health is going to be massive. I would not disagree at all that we need to take mental health seriously.

I would disagree though that just lifting all the restrictions now because ‘people have done enough’ would put us in some happier place where everyone gets to live full lives again.

I’m not going to type out all the horrifying details, but this is Ecuador in spring: www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/theyre-leaving-us-to-die-ecuadorians-plead-for-help-as-virus-blazes-deadly-trail

And this is Brazil a bit later: www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/30/brazil-manaus-coronavirus-mass-graves

That does not look like a scenario that’s going to be good for either the population’s mental health or the economy.

I appreciate that a lot of people feel that wouldn’t happen here but I can’t understand WHY they think it wouldn’t happen here, and if the only reasoning is “well I’ve had enough of these restrictions now” I don’t think it would be a great idea to risk those kind of consequences.

KitKatastrophe · 02/09/2020 16:09

@eaglejulesk

And yes we've got a vaccine for flu. Still doesn't stop people dying of it though, where's our lockdown for that?

Of course people still die from flu even though there is a vaccine because many people don't/won't have the vaccine. Surely people have to take some responsibility for their own choices.

And in 2018 the flu vaccine was 15% effective. So plenty of people who had the vaccine still died of flu. Why didnt we lockdown to save them?

www.gov.uk/government/news/flu-vaccine-effectiveness-in-2017-to-2018-season

BamboozledandBefuddled · 02/09/2020 16:23

@ChanceEncounter

I've never pretended that anonymous people have the same importance to me as my immediate family.

In extremis I would agree, obviously I would save my children before saving you.

But many people behave pro-socially, e.g. pay taxes, follow laws even when they won't get caught. Many wouldn't take the money from a dropped purse even if they wouldn't be seen.

Ultimately people are either pro-social or they are not. That's up to the individual.

But you said earlier "we don't make decisions about human lives based on whether we fancy the people concerned" so why would you save your children first. I have done - and am still doing - all of those pro-social things you mention. I haven't broken a single law with regard to Covid and if I've broken any guidelines, it's been 100% accidental. But apparently I'm 'inhumane'. Admittedly after the last few months, 'humane' is not a word I would apply to society in the UK but I think you've revealed enough of your character to make it clear that we have very different definitions of that word.
ChanceEncounter · 02/09/2020 16:29

But you said earlier "we don't make decisions about human lives based on whether we fancy the people concerned" so why would you save your children first.

That wasn't me, @BamboozledandBefuddled

ChanceEncounter · 02/09/2020 16:30

It was @Shockingstocking, I just checked back

BamboozledandBefuddled · 02/09/2020 16:34

Apologies @ChanceEncounter, I muddled two posts/quotes. I blame it on less than three hours sleep and DM being particularly difficult today.

ChanceEncounter · 02/09/2020 16:38

@BamboozledandBefuddled

Apologies *@ChanceEncounter*, I muddled two posts/quotes. I blame it on less than three hours sleep and DM being particularly difficult today.
It's fine! Sometimes I read threads all wrong too Flowers
Jaxhog · 02/09/2020 17:27

I think you are really asking a lot if you expect people to sacrifice their personal well being, either physical or mental health wise, for a person they have never met.
Millions of people have done a "few simple things" for months now, at some point they quite rightly are allowed to feel they have done enough.

It's a comment like this that makes me despair for the future of the human race. God help us if we had another war.

I am not belittling real MH. I have relatives with ADSD and who are on the Autistic spectrum who are having to cope too. But I have heard so much guff on MN about people's 'MH' being affected by not being able to go to raves or beaches or coffee shops. It has become everyone's excuse for not caring about anyone else. When did we get so blooming feeble?!

Shockingstocking · 02/09/2020 17:33

we don't make decisions about human lives based on whether we fancy the people concerned" so why would you save your children first

Straw man.

Governments are structured in such a way that no one should have the chance to put their children first.

Shockingstocking · 02/09/2020 17:41

I do think you're hiding a very callous attitude behind a straw man argument bam.

Allowing thousands to die because you couldn't possibly put strangers before your mental health is not quite the same as watching your child die in a burning building while you save the other guy. And if it is, you need to go about getting on the vulnerable list.