Some reassuring news about schools being really safe

[TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair]

I know there's a huge amount of (justifiable) worry about schools going back soon and I saw a piece of news today which deserved it's own thread in case people wanted some nice news.

Public Health England has looked at the evidence from June when 1,646,000 pupils went back to 23,400 schools in total. They found just 67 cases of the virus as a result of that. Only 0.01% of schools actually experienced an outbreak. That means that not only are children exceptionally unlikely to suffer any serious effects from catching the virus if they do get it but they are also really, really likely to catch it or spread it around in school. I know that won't reassure absolutely everyone, particularly if you have a child with additional health needs, but it is so lovely to be able to look at the evidence and say that, in terms of this virus, schools are actually really low risk.

Story from here www.gov.uk/government/news/study-finds-very-low-numbers-of-covid-19-outbreaks-in-schools?utm_source=01ce0967-35e6-401b-92c7-8d5c486b1fe3&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

It's very obtuse to take my example of a school in Dundee and go 'well it's only the teachers getting it'.

I find it hard to believe that covid is some kind of exception that is magically repelled by children

This too.

Hello Gavin!

That data tells us nothing. I'd be more interested to see the data around October/November time when students are less likely to be outside during a school day. I'd also hope that any future data has been taken from a cross section of secondary schools that have at least 1300+ students. It would also be informative for the public to see the data for secondary schools in old buildings with poor ventilation, windows that don't open very far, and which have small classrooms not designed for 32 students. In other words, what happens in your average UK secondary school.

See it's good news if you're a 'chances are low' person. If you're a 'shit I cant believe there's a chance' person (me, because I was only person in my locality battered with covid), I'm afraid it's not really great. But it's definitely something!! And OP calm down!!

I'm a primary teacher who wants schools to go back for all children. However, this report is making my blood boil. I was in a year group that was back in June. In my corridor (which has 8 classrooms) only 4 of the classes were back, of those classes only half the children were in for 2 days, meaning a max of 60 children - in reality it was 45-50. The children were in bubbles of 15. No mixing, no using other parts of the schools, only 2 adults with each class (who were also social distancing from other staff).
We will be going from 50 children in our corridor, to 240. We will be going from bubbles of 15 to bubbles of 120. I don't want schools to close again (My own DCs need to be back), but I don't want to be spun a line from our government. I want clear guidelines about what will happen if circumstances change. Until we get that there will just be speculation which makes everyone (staff, parents, pupils) anxious.

@ineedaholidaynow

I hadn’t appreciated this... Having read some more it seems as though Sweden’s schools did implement considerable distancing and mitigation measures. Apologies, I should have researched this further before I posted.

My DS6 was in a class of 5 and only did 3 half days in July.

So far this year English government have told us

• Just wash your hands, you’ll be fine
• Masks are useless
• Go on holiday
• Not a hostelry in the country we shouldn’t visit
• If you get covid, whatever you do stay at home (don’t bother your GP or go to hospital for help) - unless you’re the PM or his chief advisor
• Back to office to keep Prets going
• Schools are safe
• Track n trace is world beating
• Online secondary lessons are no-no
• Exam results will be fair

Turns out pretty soon after the event that all that is wrong. And that most countries know this. We are an embarrassment.

Since 2003 SARS we already knew

• you’re very infectious say 48 hours before you have symptoms
• exhaled droplets spread the disease and the most easily affected cells are in the nasal cavity
• it kills and maims and we should be rightly frightened of it

Institut Pasteur’s research showed we succeeded in 77% reduction from working/learning from home.

I absolutely agree that schools as they are/will reopen now aren't the same, or really comparable, to in June. I will just point out, though, that MN was full of fear in June, too, and people saying how awful it was that they were reopening at all, that children and teachers were guinea pigs, that it would lead to a huge spike in infections - all the things that people say now. This idea that the reopening in June was fine, sensible and well-planned is very retrospective. Just like how no one ever talks about nurseries (now operating essentially as normal) any more, since it turns out there have been very few problems since reopening them, and if you mention this you get told that of course nurseries are fine when that very much wasn't the narrative in advance.

I wouldn't say they're really safe but I do find it reassuring. By the end of summer term our school had taken back 200 students, split into bubbles of 15. I believe they tried to keep children social distanced when they were sat down, but when I picked DS up there was no SD happening - children were virtually jumping all over each other to get out of the door to go home. We had zero cases within the school through the whole time

That was a primary school though, my children are now moving into secondary and college and I do wonder what'll happen there. I'd feel more comfortable if they wore masks.

Also isn’t the background risk of kids coming to school infected in June (coming after weeks of UK lockdown) very different to background risks in September, after weeks of non-lockdown, with shops and offices and other venues reopened, plus after some kids have been summer holidaying in different parts of the UK and different parts of the world, or others not not holidaying but just finding childcare wherever possible and all children having fewer restrictions on socialising outside of immediate household? the scenarios seem quite different, as much as I welcome the return of school for the children’s education and to help parents.

The timing of this thread is suspicious and the contempt it has drawn well deserved.

I think that the European centre for disease control has some interesting findings, looking across Europe as a whole.
www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/children-and-school-settings-covid-19-transmission

Yes ive often thought threads are started with v obvious agendas re schools...

Interesting- thanks for posting the link.

@TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair

Gosh there's really no getting through to some people! This is really useful data. It's evidence schools are really safe.

Are you for real?? I’m a Primary Teacher, schools were shut for children in June other than keyworker/vulnerable children. There might have been that many children in schools across the UK, but if it’s anything like the schools here, the children were spread throughout the whole school in small groups and Arriving/departing at hugely staggered times. That’s absolutely nothing like it will be in September. For example in the school I work in, we had 10 bubbles but only had 6 children maximum in each bubble meaning that all of them, and the adult in the bubble, were socially distancing at ALL times. That won’t be happening in September due to lack of staff and space!

These figures aren’t worth the paper they’re written on and are meant to convince gullible people like you that schools are safe.

[quote OhYouBadBadKitten]I think that the European centre for disease control has some interesting findings, looking across Europe as a whole.
www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/children-and-school-settings-covid-19-transmission[/quote]
That report is interesting.
I noticed this summary point:
"If appropriate physical distancing and hygiene measures are applied, schools are unlikely to be more effective propagating environments than other occupational or leisure settings with similar densities of people."
I think this is what teachers in the UK are concerned about. They can see that the physical set up of their schools will restrict the amount of physical distancing and hygiene measures that can be undertaken. I'm also uncertain that there are any other settings where the density of people in will be as high.
If the government wants schools to go back safely, they need to be providing resources so that more physical distancing and hygiene measures can be taken. There is no extra funding in schools for anything like hand sanitiser, extra hand washing spaces etc, let alone providing more space to allow greater distancing. Some schools may luck out with spare classrooms and other spaces etc that they can use but others won't be able to do anything at all.

It's evidence schools are really safe.

Let's wait and see when the real life evidence is available. Why argue meanwhile?

Schools aren't totally safe of course, they never will be. However, if there hadn't been so much money pocketed by mates spaffed up the wall on useless PPE and the like, there would be money to spend on making schools safer and employing more teachers / using smaller spaces in the way that every other European country has been able to spend on theirs.

And who knows, if we teach through autumn in segregated bubbles of 15 with a 1m plus social distance between children, we might well get similar data to the study.

But there won't be any distancing and there won't be good hand washing and cleaning or any wriggle room in the supply budget, because it's not funded.

As a teacher being at the bottom of the pile for money is not a new thing. But as a parent, I think people need to wake up and shout louder about the lack of money because this government only listens to the loud voices.

If appropriate physical distancing and hygiene measures are applied, schools are unlikely to be more effective propagating environments than other occupational or leisure settings with similar densities of people."
I think this is what teachers in the UK are concerned about. They can see that the physical set up of their schools will restrict the amount of physical distancing and hygiene measures that can be undertaken.

Yes, definitely-it’s all there in black and white.

Dr Hillary on Lorraine at the moment quoting this data - again without pointing out that schools were not at full capacity and were small social distancing bubbles!

These people have clearly never stepped foot in a small school with tiny classrooms filled with 30 children each!

Don’t get me wrong I want my children to get back to ‘normal’ but with their safety at the forefront of the plan, not the economy!

@MrsWhites
I agree with your point about them being out of touch regarding primaries.
But primaries are what most discussion is formed around, as the reality of secondaries would totally blow their tiny minds.

Dh read that out to me last night. The 60 or so kids that had it.

He also read out from the same document, that something like 125 school staff had also caught it.

Why is nobody challenging them on it?

Either they are completely thick or they are hoping we are.