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Some reassuring news about schools being really safe

319 replies

TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair · 23/08/2020 21:14

I know there's a huge amount of (justifiable) worry about schools going back soon and I saw a piece of news today which deserved it's own thread in case people wanted some nice news.

Public Health England has looked at the evidence from June when 1,646,000 pupils went back to 23,400 schools in total. They found just 67 cases of the virus as a result of that. Only 0.01% of schools actually experienced an outbreak. That means that not only are children exceptionally unlikely to suffer any serious effects from catching the virus if they do get it but they are also really, really likely to catch it or spread it around in school. I know that won't reassure absolutely everyone, particularly if you have a child with additional health needs, but it is so lovely to be able to look at the evidence and say that, in terms of this virus, schools are actually really low risk.

Story from here www.gov.uk/government/news/study-finds-very-low-numbers-of-covid-19-outbreaks-in-schools?utm_source=01ce0967-35e6-401b-92c7-8d5c486b1fe3&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

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5
Uhoh2020 · 24/08/2020 16:23

@Devlesko private nurseries are already open and have been open non key worker children for a while now. There's zero social distancing going on with toddlers, they probably all lick the same toys and each other and the nursery workers are giving more personal care than other school settings .

MrsHerculePoirot · 24/08/2020 16:23

@moretolifethanthis2020 do you teach in England in a state school?

Windyjuly · 24/08/2020 16:24

Jenny harries has apparently said, children under 15 can't comply and that with measures such as sitting side by side in place masks are not necessary.

I wonder... If jenny harries is aware of necks, that children and adults use to Turn Their Heads!! Which they will in doubtedeldy do to talk to their pals.

The wishy washy rubbish, that comes out of PHE... Better not ask children under 15 to wear a mask because they are non compliant? Where does this come from! It's beserk. But she, they of course rely on strong evidence to take any action!

Utterly berserk I don't understand why any of them are in jobs.
Children are compliant. Some are not most are. At certain ages, they become more tricky but my dc ages would all wear masks or visors no question!!

Windyjuly · 24/08/2020 16:26

I believe the data on very small dc is good and shows differently to older dc.
Secondary schools I think and FE are the hot spots.

halcyondays · 24/08/2020 16:28

Absolute nonsense, children younger than 15 are required to wear masks on public transport (age limit for exemption varying across the UK) and in shops, except in Wales, I think.

Ashard20 · 24/08/2020 16:31

@Frippenos agreed.

From June onwards - social distancing, no more than 15 in a bubble, temperature testing, only three year groups in school.

September onwards - no proper social distancing, full year groups in a bubble, no temperature testing, all year groups in.

How anyone can profess with all confidence that this new scenario will definitely be safe is beyond me. If the figures show us that is the case as the term proceeds, then that will be great. At the moment, any comparison or prediction is useless because there are two different variables.

And don't get me started on the misleading and inaccurate media pictures of nearly empty classrooms, children wearing masks, social distancing and teachers checking temperatures. Not according to the DfE guidance.

uglyface · 24/08/2020 16:34

Has anyone mentioned yet that the promise of additional funding for cleaning premises has been withdrawn?

In June and July our school hired a cleaner to come and do a thorough clean every day to meet the standards set out by the government, after being told that costs would be reimbursed. We have had to let that cleaner go now, as no funding has been made available. Teachers will do what they can, but will be under time pressure to get setting up/marking/bureaucracy done after school and it won’t be to the same standard.

Surely that will affect the data.

TheSunIsStillShining · 24/08/2020 16:35

Could we stop using the word bubbles when talking about more than 1 form primaries?
A bubble of 350 kids using public transport, wandering from class to class and 1500+ using the same dining facilities is nowhere near a bubble. It's using a word to frame a story and engage the "fast thinking" parts of our brains so we don't question it's rationality.

guilttripjourno · 24/08/2020 16:41

Limited number of key worker kids only. Bubbles and social distancing followed. No hot lunches. Parents more aware. Now all year groups in namesake bubbles. Parents will mix at the gates. Lunches will be served. No additional guidance except wash hands!! I feel pretty safe.

StaffAssociationRepresentative · 24/08/2020 16:45

@uglyface - I think that money has been moved onto school transport. Government are robbing Peter to pay Paul

Morfin · 24/08/2020 16:49

Sky had an interview with Con MP Trott, she kept saying about SD in school, does she know she is lying?

Vinoonasunnyday · 24/08/2020 18:19

Practically no one is social distancing anywhere you go now it’s only teachers demanding it and I teach FE!

The same people I know complaining break similar rules daily

CallmeAngelina · 24/08/2020 18:21

it’s only teachers demanding it
What do you mean? Evidence?

Kashtan · 24/08/2020 21:12

@TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair
@moretolifethanthis2020
I guess you 2 were messing on your phones at the back of the class when you did data analysis in science.
You are making ludicrous extrapolations from the data.
Let me try an analogy.
In my school all male staff must wear a tie.
On the basis you use therefore wearing a tie must make you male, as there is a 100% concordance with tie wearing and XY chromosomes and none of the XX staff wear ties.
To continue my analogy, at the weekend I often wear a tie for my hobby. On your basis I must therefore now become XY rather than XX
Correlation is not equivalent to causation, or lack of it.
In June we had around a quarter of y10 and 12 in at any one time. They lined up socially distanced ( enforced by staff) outside different entrances for each class, went directly to desks spaced at 2m in each direction ( I taught my lessons in the assembly hall), they were supervised sanitising their hands on arrival, and on leaving. Each lesson was 2 hours and then they went home, no mixing, no meals on site, encouraged not to use the loos if possible. We abided by the government rules on schools reopening to more than the key worker cohort.
School was safe at that point.
This will not be the case in September ( btw I am desperate to get back to school) I will teach six period days, 375 kids over the week from every year group from y7-y13, due to my subject the kids will travel to me ( though I am also roomed to teach in many other places as well).
We have a gorgeous victorian building. The narrow corridors are rammed at lesson changeover. I cannot move the old wooden desks in my room, and every seating spot is full for most groups. Bubbles will be non existent, so near on 2000 kids mixing daily. Some buses are shared with another school and many have younger siblings at various primaries.
There is a massive discord between that, and the government telling us we mustn’t mix with more than one other household inside, or eat out in groups of more than six.
The virus cannot discriminate between hosts and we are unwittingly putting both students and their families at risk with these arrangements.
Half the numbers in each class, have the kids in on a week in, week out basis and you might have a chance of schools continuing to open over the winter.

Shockingstocking · 24/08/2020 21:15

What I don't understand is how wishingchair can be so dim.

Is wishingchair under the impression that schools went back in June under the conditions that they're going back now? If so, is she under the impression that this makes no difference?

Why has she not had a thought process about it and shared it on this thread she started? Surely it's the first point to cover when starting a 'reassuring' thread?

SavoyCabbage · 24/08/2020 21:17

I had four dc then and after about a week two of the parents changed their minds so I had two. We spent most of our time outside as it was glorious and my TA and I were able to wipe tables and equipment and make sure they washed their hands properly.

We had oodles of time and no curriculum pressures.

StaffAssociationRepresentative · 24/08/2020 21:25

@Morfin

Sky had an interview with Con MP Trott, she kept saying about SD in school, does she know she is lying?
They are now believing their own BS.

It is a three line whip on schools, students and teachers with whip being the operative word.

Teachers will never vote for the idiots again. A load of young voters will not vote Conservative either after their experiences the past few weeks.

Labour can't believe their good luck

Shockingstocking · 24/08/2020 21:32

my TA and I were able to wipe tables and equipment and make sure they washed their hands properly.

As significant as that is, I don't think people have realised that our understanding of this virus has evolved since we thought you could avoid it by washign your hands. Remember the devastation when we realised it could be spread through droplets? That means wiping things down doesn't take you terribly far if you're spending the day next to someone breathing and talking over you.

Rompy · 24/08/2020 21:52

The Government insist it is safe to send our kids to school but the price is too much. The impact on a family on losing a parent or grandparent or long term illness, will be far more detrimental than remote teaching for a few more months. My sons have been amazed at the quality of the remote learning and telephone support. Those kids who cannot work at home or need extra help should go in, thus keeping numbers far lower. The teachers have been amazing and worked damn hard ... unlike our Government who failed to read the reports and listen to experts. Rory Steward and Dr Philip Lee were warning everyone to lock down back in February or face a national disaster.

CallmeAngelina · 24/08/2020 22:54

Interesting view here

Shockingstocking · 24/08/2020 22:58

Great article there CallmeAngelina. Exactly what I've been thinking.

YewHedge · 24/08/2020 23:02

It's a good article. Actually mentions teachers need for safety/protection in school.

locked2020 · 25/08/2020 00:35

Good article.

Rompy · 25/08/2020 05:48

Kids are a possible source of spreading this virus, and this should be taken into account in the planning stages for reopening schools.
Alessio Fasano, MD
Director, Mucosal Immunology and Biology Research Center
Massachusetts General Hospital
Editor's note: The headline of this press releases has been changed to more closely reflect the findings of the study.

BOSTON – – In the most comprehensive study of COVID-19 pediatric patients to date, Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) and Mass General Hospital for Children (MGHfC) researchers provide critical data showing that children may play a larger role in the community spread of COVID-19 than previously thought. In a study of 192 children ages 0-22, 49 children tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, and an additional 18 children had late-onset, COVID-19-related illness. The infected children were shown to have a significantly higher level of virus in their airways than hospitalized adults in ICUs for COVID-19 treatment.

“I was surprised by the high levels of virus we found in children of all ages, especially in the first two days of infection,” says Lael Yonker, MD, director of the MGH Cystic Fibrosis Center and lead author of the study, “Pediatric SARS-CoV-2: Clinical Presentation, Infectivity, and Immune Reponses,” published in The Journal of Pediatrics. “I was not expecting the viral load to be so high. You think of a hospital, and of all of the precautions taken to treat severely ill adults, but the viral loads of these hospitalized patients are significantly lower than a ‘healthy child’ who is walking around with a high SARS-CoV-2 viral load.”

Transmissibility or risk of contagion is greater with a high viral load. And even when children exhibit symptoms typical of COVID-19, like fever, runny nose and cough, they often overlap with common childhood illnesses, including influenza and the common cold. This confounds an accurate diagnosis of COVID-19, the illness derived from the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus, says Yonker. Along with viral load, researchers examined expression of the viral receptor and antibody response in healthy children, children with acute SARS-CoV-2 infection and a smaller number of children with Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MIS-C).

Findings from nose and throat swabs and blood samples from the MGHfC Pediatric COVID-19 Biorepository carry implications for the reopening of schools, daycare centers and other locations with a high density of children and close interaction with teachers and staff members. “Kids are not immune from this infection, and their symptoms don’t correlate with exposure and infection,” says Alessio Fasano, MD, director of the Mucosal Immunology and Biology Research Center at MGH and senior author of the manuscript. “During this COVID-19 pandemic, we have mainly screened symptomatic subjects, so we have reached the erroneous conclusion that the vast majority of people infected are adults. However, our results show that kids are not protected against this virus. We should not discount children as potential spreaders for this virus.”

The researchers note that although children with COVID-19 are not as likely to become as seriously ill as adults, as asymptomatic carriers or carriers with few symptoms attending school, they can spread infection and bring the virus into their homes. This is a particular concern for families in certain socio-economic groups, which have been harder hit in the pandemic, and multi-generational families with vulnerable older adults in the same household. In the MGHfC study, 51 percent of children with acute SARS-CoV-2 infection came from low-income communities compared to 2 percent from high-income communities.

In another breakthrough finding from the study, the researchers challenge the current hypothesis that because children have lower numbers of immune receptors for SARS-CoV2, this makes them less likely to become infected or seriously ill. Data from the group show that although younger children have lower numbers of the virus receptor than older children and adults, this does not correlate with a decreased viral load. According to the authors, this finding suggests that children can carry a high viral load, meaning they are more contagious, regardless of their susceptibility to developing COVID-19 infection.

The researchers also studied immune response in MIS-C, a multi-organ, systemic infection that can develop in children with COVID-19 several weeks after infection. Complications from the accelerated immune response seen in MIS-C can include severe cardiac problems, shock and acute heart failure.

“This is a severe complication as a result of the immune response to COVID-19 infection, and the number of these patients is growing,” says Fasano, who is also a professor of Pediatrics at Harvard Medical School (HMS). “And, as in adults with these very serious systemic complications, the heart seems to be the favorite organ targeted by post-COVID-19 immune response,” he adds.

Understanding MIS-C and post-infectious immune responses from pediatric COVID-19 patients is critical for developing next steps in treatment and prevention strategies, according to the researchers. Early insights into the immune dysfunction in MIS-C should prompt caution when developing vaccine strategies, notes Yonker.

As MGHfC pediatricians, both Yonker and Fasano are constantly fielding questions from parents about the safe return of their children to school and daycare. They agree that the most critical question is what steps the schools will implement “to keep the kids, teachers, and personnel safe.” Recommendations from their study, which includes 30 co-authors from MGHfC, MGH, HMS, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Brigham and Women’s Hospital and Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, include not relying on body temperature or symptom monitoring to identify SARS-CoV-2 infection in the school setting.

The researchers emphasize infection control measures, including social distancing, universal mask use (when implementable), effective hand-washing protocols and a combination of remote and in-person learning. They consider routine and continued screening of all students for SARS-CoV-2 infection with timely reporting of the results an imperative part of a safe return-to-school policy.

“This study provides much-needed facts for policymakers to make the best decisions possible for schools, daycare centers and other institutions that serve children,” says Fasano. “Kids are a possible source of spreading this virus, and this should be taken into account in the planning stages for reopening schools.”

Fasano fears that a hurried return to school without proper planning could result in an uptick in cases of COVID-19 infections. “If schools were to reopen fully without necessary precautions, it is likely that children will play a larger role in this pandemic,” the authors conclude.

Morfin · 25/08/2020 07:50

That Independent article is depressingly true