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Daily numbers, graphs, analysis thread 15

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 13/08/2020 21:37

Welcome to thread 15 of the daily updates

Resource links:

Uk dashboard deaths, cases, hospitals, tests - 4 nations, LAs, English regions
Slides & data UK govt pressers
UK added daily by PHE & DHSC
PHE Surveillance report infections & watchlists every Thursday with sep. infographic
ONS England infection surveillance report
ONS UK death stats each Tuesday
ECDC rolling 14-day incidence EEA & UK
Daily ECDC country detail UK
Worldometer UK page
Plot FT graphs compare countries deaths, cases, raw / million pop
Covidly.com world summary & graphs
Plot COVID Graphs Our World in Data test positivity etc

We welcome factual, data driven, and civil discussions from all contributors 📈 📉 📊 👍

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Thread gallery
104
Redolent · 19/08/2020 22:28

@whenwillthemadnessend

How exciting Zoe is almost under 20,000 cases. I can't wait to see those numbers in the teens.
I wouldn't recommend using the Zoe/KCH Covid app for providing accurate estimations of cases. As with many other days, it's currently reporting there are zero active cases in Blackburn or Pendle, when those two authorities are in the Top 4 for cases/million in the last week.
BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2020 22:47

New daily cases:

3,776 France (~ same population as UK)
3,715 Spain (70% of UK pop)
1,510 Germany (125%)
642 Italy (90%)

300 S Korea (78%)

but look at the alarm in S Korea Confused

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/aug/19/coronavirus-live-news-global-cases-near-22m-as-wall-street-record-defies-economic-gloom?page=with:block-5f3d7e0e8f089b3b72ad0199#block-5f3d7e0e8f089b3b72ad0199

... South Korea’s health ministry has warned that the country is facing a “desperately dangerous crisis” of spreading coronavirus,
after the country reported its highest daily rise in cases since early March.

On Wednesday, officials asked people in Seoul, the capital, to stay at home if they could, warning that testing, tracing and isolation measures were insufficient.

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BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2020 22:56

Thoughts:

UK figures are again difficult to compare internationally, as the UK dashboard gives the "number of people"

  • which is logical and more useful (if actually true) -

whereas at least some other countries give "number of positive tests" - some people will be tested more than once
e.g. the RKI in Germany states
"the number of positive tests is not the same as the number of persons tested, as the data may include multiple tests of individual patients" 🤦🏻‍♀️
So not 1,500 people in Germany, but 1,500 positive tests

This really is a situation where the other countries should copy PHE !!
because it is the # people that is important; the total of positive tests - not very.

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BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2020 22:58

It took PHE a long time to be able to state the # people, so it does seem more complicated to obtain than just totting up the positive tests

However, if PHE can do it .....

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itsgettingweird · 19/08/2020 23:02

I'm working backwards with the possibly here earlier.

I know there was awful cough, gastric and glandular fever rule illness in Oct/Nov last year in schools and in very healthy children.

At the time I just assumed one of those years.

But now who has announced the August thing and it's been mentioned recently about increase in testing for GF before Xmas I'm just seeing if I can find evidence that 2 and make 4!

Time will tell but it's very interesting and certainly the scientific opinion seems to be leaning towards possibility it was around sooner than known.

itsgettingweird · 19/08/2020 23:05

With regards asymptomatic and those who spread I've seen

Up to 80% possibly asymptomatic

80% don't spread it.

20% spread but only half of those are super spreaders.

If this is proven conclusively by data then it would go along way to explain these outbreaks we've seen in workplaces etc.

Problem is we cannot know who a super spreader will be until they've spread it. And this is probably what is the greatest risk to those at risk iyswim?

itsgettingweird · 19/08/2020 23:12

Random musing as we know that immunity is still a huge area of debate and study.

But U.K. locked down late and had biggest death rate.

There were talks of "wait until it's over before comparing"

However there is some correlation in that France and Spain who locked down earlier and hard are now having a huge rise in cases and yet U.K. isn't (yet).

Perhaps there will be a balance out and perhaps it'll be proven that shutting everyone away and no community spread causes a bigger wave.

I wouldn't say either was right because our death toll is heartbreaking - but we may have a lower spread now as a result?

alreadytaken · 19/08/2020 23:43

Locking down early means that you benefit from more being known about the virus and better treatments having been developed. You also push more cases into summer when people probably have stronger immune systems. So if you get exactly the same numbers infected fewer of them die. The rise in positive tests in the rest of Europe shouldnt produce the same level of deaths as they would have had if infected sooner.

The virus may have been around a bit sooner than was first thought but not much longer. Many of the people who want to think they have had it are deluding themselves.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 19/08/2020 23:49

“The government has got this wrong by looking solely at cases.”

twitter.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1296208807962476544?s=21

Carl Heneghan of CEBM talking absolute sense on Newsnight: says “it is incoherent and unsustainable” to focus on #Covid19 cases numbers as the “virus is circulating at a low level” in Oldham

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2020 23:49

@itsgettingweird

Random musing as we know that immunity is still a huge area of debate and study.

But U.K. locked down late and had biggest death rate.

There were talks of "wait until it's over before comparing"

However there is some correlation in that France and Spain who locked down earlier and hard are now having a huge rise in cases and yet U.K. isn't (yet).

Perhaps there will be a balance out and perhaps it'll be proven that shutting everyone away and no community spread causes a bigger wave.

I wouldn't say either was right because our death toll is heartbreaking - but we may have a lower spread now as a result?

.... Herd immunity for COVID requires a vaccine, or it costs too many deaths

Without a vaccine, it is a terrible strategy - and denied by all governments - for a virus that is still estimated to have an IFR about 10 x flu.
Especially when we don't know how long or how complete immunity is

With a completely "novel" virus, the prognosis is much better if you catch it later,
after some treatment protocols and meds have been developed.
Think how far scientists and doctors have come over the last 5 months

Also, we now know much more about how to minimise the spread of infection, with masks and SD,
but in a targetted way instead of the blunderbus of lockdown

The cases are rising across Europe - including Sweden which didn't lock down at all -
but are likely still at least an order of magnitude lower than the 1st wave peak.

With all the knowledge gained about clusters & superspreaders, cases should be kept well below that 1st wave.

imo conclusions:

Even if there is a (small) 2nd wave this winter - which is by no means certain -
I don't expect the UK or continental European countries to have anything like the deaths of the 1st wave

Also, unclear whether the UK at only slightly higher % antibodies than its neighbours - about 7% vs 6% - will have significantly more immunity for this winter

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BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2020 23:56

@AlecTrevelyan006

“The government has got this wrong by looking solely at cases.”

twitter.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1296208807962476544?s=21

Carl Heneghan of CEBM talking absolute sense on Newsnight: says “it is incoherent and unsustainable” to focus on #Covid19 cases numbers as the “virus is circulating at a low level” in Oldham

... A government should consider all data, including cases, hospitalisations, deaths, occupancy rates etc Focusing on only 1 metric is tunnel vision Oldham cases look to be coming down atm anyway

(re being "not politically biased" in the comment on that twitter thread:
That poster just means Heneghan shares his views !
Pushing too hard for any decision of this sort risks getting enmeshed in politics on one side or the other. Views have become so polarised and emotional)

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BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2020 23:59

Also - a bit off topic - I think it completely OTT to close a school, or even a year group, just because of 1 case

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BigChocFrenzy · 20/08/2020 00:05

The amount of risk someone wishes the authorities, or teachers, or doctors to take is not a "party political" issue
People of all parties have different attitudes to risk
It's not a simple left / right split, but it seems to be a very emotional one

In many countries, opposition parties of whatever persuasion have been criticising the government of whatever persuasion over COVID - now, that is politics

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NeurotrashWarrior · 20/08/2020 08:21

Regarding Zoe app; I'm sure they build it into their algorithm but I've not been as good at doing it since I've had breaks away and been more busy with sorting things for school, seeing friends (socially distanced) and taking the kids out and about.

I doubt I'll keep it up when I'm back in the classroom in sept either.

If there's others like me it may not be as much of an accurate tool?

MRex · 20/08/2020 11:33

@BigChocFrenzy - whatever any government does, it will receive criticism. Someone took NZ government to court for locking down a few days before the law allowed, Australia has an awful care home scandal... Iceland are getting criticism for declaring covid near eliminated then it coming back (and their screening processes).

The polarisation of opinion is maddening, is it social media soundbites that are driving it? Normal media all seem to have calmed a little from being too polarising, at least in the UK. It seems sensible to me for people to be living lives as normally as possible in areas where cases are low, taking preventative measures where possible and being much more cautious in areas where cases are high - then I read tens of threads where it's apparently unreasonable to ask anyone to quarantine next to 184 more threads about schools that never go anywhere... There are still threads where people are shouting wildly that cases are higher in UK than Spain / France / wherever they want to go on holiday; Germany can say that returning holidaymakers are bringing in the virus but the UK government aren't to be believed for saying the same. Maybe I'm the one who needs the social media break!

itsgettingweird · 20/08/2020 11:58

Watching my town.

After a few odd 1/2 cases a week and weeks free we had 9 cases over 3 days last week which have been updated.

Hopefully it's rumbling around a household/family/workplace and they are all related and/or traceable.

But considering everywhere I've been it's voluntary to record your presence by QT code I'm not sure Hmm

itsgettingweird · 20/08/2020 12:00

Excellent points MRex

That's why I love this thread for all the actual data.

And for me being able to ask about this whole possibly started earlier and there's no yelling about conspiracy's etc. People just have me data and a narrative alongside. Smile

whenwillthemadnessend · 20/08/2020 12:10

M Rex. Totally agree!

Coquohvan · 20/08/2020 13:44

At last Scotland can open gyms 31/8.

PrayingandHoping · 20/08/2020 14:02

Luton reviewed their restrictions this week and have kept them in place. Those shielding had been told to do so until the 17th and have now been told to wait for another letter.... they have also extended the testing for anyone who now works in a Luton (before it was anyone with an Lu postcode which was a much wider area than Luton. Covered at least 2 other council areas)

Oldbutstillgotit · 20/08/2020 14:44

@ Coquohvan NS did say it is an indicative date . There are rising infection numbers in Scotland and the FM is very cautious so i wouldn’t dust off your gym kit just yet .

tootyfruitypickle · 20/08/2020 14:56

@Mrex also agree. This thread and the Good News thread are the two main sources of my info these days, otherwise I get dragged down all sorts of rabbit holes that are not helpful.

Numbers where my parents live in in the south have also shown a bit of a jump this past week, not enough to cause major concern, but it was a bit of a shock when I saw them.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/08/2020 15:27

The total of 65,000 excess deaths for the earlier period of the year has fallen as 2020 progresses,
because of the lower than usual total deaths for the past 2 months+

According to the COVID-19 Actuaries Response Group,
cumulative excess deaths fell by 2,500 between the mid-June peak and 24 July

They calculate 61,400 excess deaths in the UK up to 14 August, of which 55,800 are for England & Wales:

www.actuaries.org.uk/system/files/field/document/Mortality-monitor-Week-32-2020-v01-2020-08-18.pdf

Daily numbers, graphs, analysis thread 15
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BigChocFrenzy · 20/08/2020 15:40

imo, we only need to be seriously concerned again - and consider tighter measures - if deaths and hospitalisations start rocketing,
which won't happen without multiples of current positive cases.

Note:
if we'd had this level of COVID last winter, it would not have raised the excess deaths above normal.
Hence would have passed under the radar

The public health authorities need to keep an eye on cases, in case of exponential growth,
but currently, as in my upthread calculations, I very roughly estimate German cases are about 1/30 of the peak level, at any rate a tiny % of real peak cases
and UK cases are also at a tiny % of peak

So we have quite a margin in which current SD etc has a good chance of keeping COVID down to a 2nd RIpple rather than a 2nd Wave.

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BigChocFrenzy · 20/08/2020 15:42

What is against the idea of a significant level of COVID cases over winter is that there was no SD then,
so it is unclear why it would not spread, especially to the frail elderly,
with such suitable conditions of cold and people indoors

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