Schools reopening 2

[oldbagface]

Old thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3971862-Schools-Reopening?pg=1

If a child is violent under these conditions, exclusion isn't the answer.

Then how are teachers to be protected? I agree in an ideal world it wouldn't have to happen but these are extraordinary circumstances and teachers should not be subjected to violence.

At one time the unions would back a teacher's refusal to teach a child who had hurt them, that's as it should be. If a child has hurts a teacher, for whatever reason, that teacher should not be forced to have that child in the class.

Sorry took the thread off on a tangent but I really resent the idea that children who can be violent have no place to be in mainstream. With the right support many violent kids wouldn't be violent.

@DomDoesWotHeWants and I wonder how many of those teachers if they were made to sit and do a full review of an incident so looking at what was happening in the room at the time, the specific trigger, what they know of the child already, warning signs in the lead up or attempts to de-escalate.. how many of those incidents simply did not need to or would/should not have happened?

Why should a child be excluded because at best they werent supported when needed and at worst things were deliberately antagonised or needlessly pushed?

BKCRMP

Sounds as though your girl is at primary and has an EHCP? I’m glad it’s working for her right now.

I teach a year 7 class that has 6 children in that have reading ages of between 4 and 7 years.

It’s a small class - the rest of the children have reading ages below 9.

2 students in particular have SLC on the first percentile. One is being assessed for ASD and one, I am fairly sure, has a syndrome that affects learning and behaviour. Neither has an EHCP.

I’ve requested to continue teaching this class next year and we’ve essentially built the English timetable at KS3 to protect that continuity.

I have a TA at best 3 out of 5 lessons.

Both can be very volatile and both are working at the level of much, much younger children.

I have to be very hands on - guiding to a seat, pointing to a book, sitting next to one of them whilst I teach the class in order to help them manage.

I don’t mind - although I’m under no illusion that they’re learning English.

How am I supposed to manage this in September?

It’s children without any financed support who are going to struggle the most.

I do think it is going to be very difficult next term when arrangements for Covid risk reduction in primary (e.g. separate areas for different bubbles, loss of routine events such as assemblies, very rigid timetables for the use of shared facilities such as the hall or ICT equipment, attempts to restrict staff to particular year groups or areas) come into conflict with arrangements in place to de-escalate behaviour for specific individuals (e.g. being able to use a computer in one of the previously shared computer areas, use of the hall to run in, freedom to roam widely at playtime, sharing staff across year groups extensively to allow rotas of support).

I also anticipate significant staff absence, which in schools already lacking funding for any TAs other than 1:1 TAs will mean that staff unfamiliar with a child's needs will need to be used, or even a choice having to be made between a child being in school without a 1:1, with a totally unfamiliar supply TA, or having to be asked to stay at home because no appropriate staff are available.

I would also agree that it is children below the threshold for 1:1, or with much less than full time hours (full time hours are VERY rare in my LA), who aee going to find things hardest, and whose behaviour could easily deteriorate, especially after 6 months without the demands and structure of school.

The two examples i gave were of children without any SEN but with pronounced attachment issues. This is absolutely not their fault and I do my absolute best to de - escalate but sometimes the load is just too much. Something may have happened at home that I am unaware of, another child may have done something that i am not aware of, the child may have seen or heard me do or say something and taken it the wrong way. I have been sworn at, called names, punched, spat at and kicked. I have had things thrown at me, work ripped up, displays trashed. These children are volatile and their triggers change day to day. They do not have 1 - 1 and TA's are sometimes redeployed to cover in other classes. I am concerned about the effect of them having had 6 months at home and being out of routine. Do I want them excluded? No of course I don't. But neither do I want to be hurt. I also don't want to be blamed when I am doing my best.

[quote BKCRMP]@DomDoesWotHeWants and I wonder how many of those teachers if they were made to sit and do a full review of an incident so looking at what was happening in the room at the time, the specific trigger, what they know of the child already, warning signs in the lead up or attempts to de-escalate.. how many of those incidents simply did not need to or would/should not have happened?

Why should a child be excluded because at best they werent supported when needed and at worst things were deliberately antagonised or needlessly pushed?[/quote]
My friend was kicked in the back by a boy while dealing with another pupil. Not sure what she could have done to stop a boy taller than her attacking her. No victim blaming, please. He was known to be volatile and violent but his parents refused to contemplate special ed. He was excluded this time but too late for my friend. She lost a career.

Teachers are not punch bags and should not expect to be treated as such. I cannot understand why anyone would think they should put up with being attacked.

In an ideal world there would be sufficient staff and special schools but this is not an ideal world and teachers have to be protected in the short term. No teacher should go to school afraid of potential violence.

How many of those children are actually under threshold rather than just being inoccrectly advided? The myths surrounding EHCPs are horrendous and many children told they aren't entitled to one and parents put off applying or unlawful refusals by LAs are actually fully entitled to support.

@DomDoesWotHeWants I'm not saying any teacher should be hurt but I am saying that a shockingly high proportion never needed to happen. Obviously there are exceptions and obviously there are kids who absolutely shouldn't be there but you read time and time again about kids who have time out cards but then teacher deny allowing them to use them or teachers deliberately antagonising a situation even when well documented not to do x. I'm not victim blaming but also the vast majority of kids being violent the kids are equally as vulnerable and equally suffering.

Even when it’s not physical it can be exhausting for teachers and other members of the class.

With the best will in the world when you’re trying to teach 30 kids, who all deserve to be able to learn, there are some levels of need that are beyond what can be met.

Have to say if I was told it was my fault I got bitten so badly that I needed antibiotics because I phrased something wrong I’d be really pissed off.

Everyone’s needs have to be considered and I for one wouldn’t want a child in my class with a history of violence towards staff. Not unless I’d voluntarily gone to work in an environment where such behaviour was expected

How many of those children are actually under threshold rather than just being inoccrectly advided? The myths surrounding EHCPs are horrendous and many children told they aren't entitled to one and parents put off applying or unlawful refusals by LAs are actually fully entitled to support

The 2, possibly more, in my class? They would definitely meet the threshold. Both would meet the criteria for specialist provision. They should already have had EHCPs at primary school. We have explained this to parents,

My daughter's school tactfully applied for a parent in similar circumstances last year. The parent (I know them via another source and the circumtances) themselves had learning difficulties so it was done in the manner of "can we request extra support for your child" and then the parent form was posted to them by the LA. They didn't particularly fill much in on the form but the EP/SALT/school filled the gaps. They were willing to support the school so no idea how it would work with parents who deliberately wouldn't but if it gets to that point then I would hope other services are involved such as social care.

My daughter's school tactfully applied for a parent in similar circumstances last year. The parent (I know them via another source and the circumtances) themselves had learning difficulties so it was done in the manner of "can we request extra support for your child"

That’s not the right way to handle that. The parent should have been supported by an advocacy service. That’s by the by though. In my case, there is active opposition.

would hope other services are involved such as social care

You’d hope so. But no.

I think there is often an issue when children who have just coped with primary school with TA support (same group every day in the same classroom, predictable timetable, much less students on site in general) get thrown into secondary school. We've had kids arrive in y7 who sometimes, somehow, have no EHCP yet can't be left alone for a second as they do dangerous things (to both themselves and others). I've had lessons where I know if a particular child is there (often with no TA) I can forget actually trying to teach as my main concern is keeping everyone safe.

Anyway - I’m derailing.

My point is - there are thousands of children without the right support who are going to be impossible to provide for under CV guidelines.

And some of those, through their behaviours though not necessarily their fault, are going to increase the Covid-related risk to others.

I agree that there are lots of secondary age children under the threshold for an EHCP yet need a lot of extra support that will be impossible to provide in September.

BKCRMP clearly you are lucky with the support your child has and their plan. I don't think it's acceptable that a staff member has to put up with violence because they phrased something incorrectly. As for the teacher who had to take antibiotics due to being bitten, that is an awful story. If your dd is functioning at a 2.5 age child, is mainstream really the right place? We have students arrive in year 7 who can barely count. They shouldn't be in mainstream, it's not fair on them.

I think some of you really don't understand the realities of a weak prior attaining group of students at secondary school. Those with ECHPs inevitably all contradict each other. And those without them really need them! I have a TA in 2 out of 4 lessons a week with these students. Like honeyBadger said, in a class of 30, trying to remember who needs what becomes exhausting. Saying "please do your work" to a student instead of "I wonder if you can do this.." is easily done and doesn't deserve violence.

We need academic schools with smaller classes to take students who can't cope in mainstream for whatever reason.

And of course, one of the main challenges all schools are very likely going to face this coming term is high staff absence, which presents a major issue with regard to a child who needs consistency as BKCRMP's does.

@Hercwasonaroll oh I agree, it's absolutely awful and I'm still absolutely genuinely devestated that my child did it but there's also frustration because her plans are proven to work for her, she is funded well and there were 3 errors on part of the member of staff. It didn't need to happen and ironically the absolutely best thing to do to descalate her when she escalates is to leave her alone. Instead the staff member kept trying to talk her down, then picked her up, then raised her voice. She needed access to her safe spot literally just outside the classroom, she would have done her little rituals and she would have calmed.

She's only young primary, I can't see her still being in mainstream by year 6 but for now actually we feel it is the best place and we can evidence her plan does work and is managable, it goes wrong when it isn't followed and it goes horrendously wrong.

@CallmeAngelina I know my DDs school have been working on it since May anticipating the autumn situation with all their 1-1 kids. I would say there's now 4 members of staff fully confident with her and 3 or 4 further in the process of doing so purely to provide the support if needed come autumn.

Again though she has the funding and the school has the resources to be able to do so.

BKCRMP you're still blaming the member of staff for being bitten though aren't you?

@Myothercarisalsoshit my child hasn't got the communication to express herself verbally. If you are feeling threatened and handled against your will and you haven't got the means to communicate verbally then you respond in anyway you can. She's a young child. The adult ignored proven methods and directly did the explicit do not dos and a young child responded out of fear because she hasn't got the communication skills. So yes to an extent I do.

I teach nearly 200 students in a week. If I'm lucky I get personal plans sent through to me (I'm part time so often I get missed). Many students in the same class will have very different "reasonable adjustments". I try my best, honestly I do, but sometimes I forget the small details of which child needs what, especially as we are not allowed to write details in our planners or print this stuff out anymore (gdpr). It was a lot easier when I could refer to my hand scrawled planner and paper register!
Sometimes you get a class where different children need incompatible things. Like one likes background soothing music when doing individual work, one likes silence. One needs direct instructions, one needs indirect. Well with 32 in every class all having different needs, it sometimes gets a bit screwy. I'd hate to be blamed for these honest mistakes when actually I also have my own issues and difficulties (which is why I'm part time).
I've had students in year 8 who still can't read and struggle to recognise numbers to 10, who parents insisted they stay in mainstream for the socialisation. I'm sorry, but the tutor group were mostly very kind but really 99% of every lesson went over their head, and we resorted to endless pictures card sorts and topic relevant colouring in. Every child in the classroom is equally important, they all deserve equal time, but there is only one of me, and due to budget cuts I cannot remember the last time I had a TA in any of my lessons. Maybe 2 years ago? - I'm told it's a compliment, but actually it's really tough!

A report from the Royal Society says measures are needed to be taken to ensure that schools can remain open.

In particular they recommend:

Provide realistic guidance and substantial extra resources to ensure schools can minimise chains of transmission ( for example: parental guidance on when to keep their child at home applying the precautionary principle; rigorous hygiene; physical distancing and reduced mixing; extra teachers; PPE - including face coverings for teachers, older children and those with underlying heath issues; management of staffrooms; regular testing; and prioritisation for vaccines for teachers).

www.tes.com/news/coronavirus-give-teachers-ppe-keep-schools-open-say-researchers

No one could argue with any of that paragraph and yet people will and, already , I feel we are not being prioritised for any vaccine that may come along.

If people want schools open 'at all costs' they need to know what they mean by that final bit of their sentence.

I would welcome more research and publicity about visors since they often seems to be suggested to vulnerable teachers and , yet, I think there is hardly any evidence they are effective by themselves. I welcome that this report also mentions medically vulnerable children. MN likes to use the phrase 'thrown under a bus' and this is where I think it could be used... there is no mention of them in the guidelines, and in many discussions at school level.

Extra teachers really isn't going to happen, is it!?

That paragraph is spot on. There will be no social distancing in the majority of schools so I suspect many parents of vulnerable children or family members won’t send them back. Using the word “bubble” doesn’t magically stop the virus.

Given the lack of social distancing outside of school by many then sending them into a full classroom it’s going to be a very very grim winter. That’s without adding those who send them in knowingly ill or refuse to test etc.