Schools reopening 2

[oldbagface]

Old thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3971862-Schools-Reopening?pg=1

I think anyone who works in schools knows that school leaders just cannot please all of their pupils' parents, unless they have a very homogeneous intake. It makes it a tough job.

That and the fact that our angriest and most challenging pupils didn’t “lick it up off the floor” as a friend used to say.

We see increasing numbers of young people who struggle to conform even to very basic social norms like not shouting and swearing and stomping off because someone asked them to take their coat off are often just repeating what was modelled to them adults who didn’t regulate their emotions and behaviours. Those parents if they do ever engage with schools are pretty challenging themselves.

I don’t know if it’s the same all over but here we’re increasingly using the term attachment disorder. Many decades on from Bowlby coining the phrase. Really basic features of safety, bonding, attuned attention and mirroring have never been given to these kids.

Schools can’t make up for emotional and social neglect like that. Very basic needs of infants are not being met and children are being left in homes that clearly aren’t meeting the most basic needs.

Sorry ton of typos and missed words.

don’t know if it’s the same all over but here we’re increasingly using the term attachment disorder.

Yes. That’s something that my previous school and my current one are all over. I think you’re right that we can’t make up for interruptions in the development of secure attachment - but many sensible teaching strategies are attachment friendly - being predictable, calm, unconditional positive regard, clear unmoving boundaries. All we can hope is that they feel securely attached within our classroom.

Yes, that's exactly what the focus of most schools is now. Clear, calm, predictable, boundaries with warmth, endless patience with high expectations... It is an absolute crying shame that many children don't have this at home.

We see increasing numbers of young people who struggle to conform even to very basic social norms like not shouting and swearing and stomping off because someone asked them to take their coat off

This sort of behaviour is going to make the new hygiene practices difficult to achieve as well, surely? It's very sad so many children are like this. It makes teaching all the other students much more difficult too, I'm sure.

We had some attachment disorder training. Watch out. The man was an unqualified SLT from another school. He literally spouted garbage from his mouth.

I got some excellent training, however, from a mental health specialist paediatric nurse. It might be in danger of becoming the new mindset stuff.

We had attachment disorder training from the local CAMHs team.
I have to say I didn't learn anything I hadn't already previously learned from a freebie course on futurelearn.
I bloody love futurelearn and am always doing random courses even though you don't get a certificate or cpd accreditation with the free version, I just do it when bored out at a playground with the kids or they've got cbeebies on or something.

There's a really good free course on futurelearn at the moment about the importance of play. I really wish every education minister and the big chiefs at the DfE would have to do it.

Our students and parents had to sign an agreement before returning in June that any adverse behaviour (affecting safety) would result in immediate action of being sent home and (maybe) not being invited back.
I presume that won't wash in September, if attendance is compulsory? So teachers and other students will be back at the mercy of anyone who might deliberately act to put them at risk?

@CallmeAngelina

Our students and parents had to sign an agreement before returning in June that any adverse behaviour (affecting safety) would result in immediate action of being sent home and (maybe) not being invited back. I presume that won't wash in September, if attendance is compulsory? So teachers and other students will be back at the mercy of anyone who might deliberately act to put them at risk?

Yes, ours did as well.

We couldn’t ‘physically encourage‘ reluctant children to come through the door so if they wouldn’t come in with verbal encouragement, the parent had to take them home. Same if they were physical or were a runner.

I presume from September, we go back to the last resort of having to scoop them up, carry them through the door and be kicked, hit, scratched, spat at and screamed at.

I had two not turn up for the transition hour. One of them was in the car screaming and shouting about not coming in - mum got all snotty with me for not having the time right there and then to go through plans for him for September. Luckily the SENCO was on the playground, who was able to explain that 'all the conversations we've already had about this..' It's like parents think staff in school don't talk to each other, especially about challenging children or situations. This mum (and gran) have previously told that child that teachers can't make him do anything, and that if we try to, he should spit at us. This was pre corona, so I wonder if their plans for dealing with us irritating teachers this year will be different?

That's heart sinkingly familiar ohthegoats from when I used to do secondary transition.

What fun eh?

I just would like to see some effort towards intervening in those homes where very basic parenting isn’t happening rather than it just being accepted as the new norm.

1 child can impact on a whole classes learning. Of course we need to cater for and manage that child but the other 29 deserve a bit more of a role than involuntary audience members. Now presumably also accepting reduced safety too from those behaviour issues.

HoneyBadger oh yes, just imagine if we had specialist places where people could go to get help and guidance and do courses to help their children, I don't know, children's centres or something? FFS short termist budget cutting Tory whasits.....

1 child can impact on a whole classes learning.

I had a very tricky class this year, with two significant challenges amongst about 7 others. The two took up about 50% of my time, 80% of an LSAs time.

The other day when they came in for transition, the children who went into other teacher's classes were only interested in whether they were in a class with those two significant challenges. When they found that they weren't, they were cheering.

If I'd known that my child was in a class with children like that, in terms of the amount of adult time they use, I'd move them out of the school. This school is great for behaviour management, but there is only so much money, and almost no input available from outside agencies to support. By the time they get to you (2 year wait), you've tried everything they are about to suggest.

I had a very tricky year 8 class a few years ago, which had 2 particular characters who took up a lot of my time. I really felt for the other students and tried to compensate for it, but sometimes there's not much that can be done - as you say, you've normally already tried everything that can be suggested.
These two characters were the reason i did the futurelearn course on attachment disorders. It didn't help with behaviour management, but it helped my understanding of the issue.

Honeybadger oh yes, it would be lovely not to have to parent children, just teach them. I feel regularly that it's the parents who ought to be in the classroom listening when we talk about making the right choice, thinking through our actions, etc. etc. When a child tells you "my dad says I can punch anyone if they punch me and I don't have to do what you tell me" you have so few places to go.

I'm still feeling very anxious about September. Trying to leave it all alone for a bit but failing!

Thank you so much for the signposting to futurelearn, what a fantastic resource. (health care professional rather than teacher) brilliant

@plasticboxesrock

Honeybadger oh yes, it would be lovely not to have to parent children, just teach them. I feel regularly that it's the parents who ought to be in the classroom listening when we talk about making the right choice, thinking through our actions, etc. etc. When a child tells you "my dad says I can punch anyone if they punch me and I don't have to do what you tell me" you have so few places to go.

I'm still feeling very anxious about September. Trying to leave it all alone for a bit but failing!

I relate to this post so much. It's both reassuring and depressing that others also have the same experiences.

I think it’s another thing non teachers don’t get. How we’re on the front line of society and the near future.

I remember trying to explain to people outside education why a call centre and services based economy (in terms of lower to medium pay employment) would mean a significant portion of young people being unemployable.

Having to spell out that significant numbers just couldn’t politely and patiently put up with a customer complaint and remain professional because they just haven’t been given or acquired that level of self regulation.

Despite being told we’re not in the real world we actually are smack there in a non selective comprehensive slice of it.

And no one wants to hear or see what that looks like lol

hopefulhalf no problem thank you for telling me you've found it helpful - it's made my day

Sorry I’m off on a tangent now but I just remembered...

Early in my teaching career I remember going on holiday with a very sweet friend who’d started teaching. She confessed to feeling dreadful about the fact that just occasionally she’d come across a teenager she found it really difficult to like. She felt awful about it.

I had to point out that non selective comprehensive state education means we get everyone including your future axe murderers, rapists, wife beaters, sociopaths, kids who torture animals etc.

She was so sweet and I’m sure she’s the kindest, most lovely hippy art teacher in the country. I think my cynical take made her feel a bit better as apparently she still reminds herself of it now.

But we’re not in the real world

The 'real world' thing is the most frustrating and incorrect criticism. My friends and family do many different, useful jobs, but many of them (sales, office based consulting, IT, law) are so sheltered. They know about their personal corporate environment but nothing about the struggles faced by many, and the different attitudes and aspirations held by many in society.