Schools reopening 2

[oldbagface]

Old thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3971862-Schools-Reopening?pg=1

Our students and parents had to sign an agreement before returning in June that any adverse behaviour (affecting safety) would result in immediate action of being sent home and (maybe) not being invited back.

Interesting - it would be in the public health interest to have similar agreements in September. I'm guessing perhaps the problem is that the government doesn't want to adequately fund social services so are still reliant on schools doing that job as well as teaching (which it seems clear is fairly difficult with even one difficult child).

I have two children in my class with severe attachment disorders. They maraud around the classroom and run away. god knows how we're going to deal with them in September. It's wearing at the best of times and I have to be so careful with my non verbal communication as they are both so hypervigilant. One has also done nothing during lockdown so I'm very worried about how he is going to adapt to being back at school given that maths and literacy are succh a trigger for him. I also have about seven others that I'm concerned about. It's going to be a struggle.

Just to add - the parent of the child that has done nothing in lockdown has already been on to the school shouting at staff about arrangements for September even though we have already reassured her that she can bring both children at the same time so she isn't late for work.

@IloveJKRowling

Our students and parents had to sign an agreement before returning in June that any adverse behaviour (affecting safety) would result in immediate action of being sent home and (maybe) not being invited back.

Interesting - it would be in the public health interest to have similar agreements in September. I'm guessing perhaps the problem is that the government doesn't want to adequately fund social services so are still reliant on schools doing that job as well as teaching (which it seems clear is fairly difficult with even one difficult child).

I think the issue is that any such agreement would run against the rules on illegal exclusions. While I would love such agreements, and can see that they were of real value while schools were partially open and optional, I suspect that nobody will be able to have and enforce such agreements in September, when it becomes compulsory for those enrolled in school to attend once again.

While I would love such agreements, and can see that they were of real value while schools were partially open and optional, I suspect that nobody will be able to have and enforce such agreements in September, when it becomes compulsory for those enrolled in school to attend once again.

I imagine schools will go through the legal process if parents refuse to co-operate. Permanent exclusion if necessary.

Schools are absolutely not Covid secure if children are allowed to spit at you, kick you and scratch your face and you have to just take it.

Letseat

The difficulty is that, certainly in primary, those who attack staff in the ways you describe are predominantly those with SEN.

A policy that disproportionately led to such children being excluded would be obviously discriminatory, and therefore unlawful.

'Attack' is the wrong word, as it implies a degree of choice and control and deliberation which is often not present - apologies. 'Treat' might be a better word.

@cantkeepawayforever

Letseat

The difficulty is that, certainly in primary, those who attack staff in the ways you describe are predominantly those with SEN.

A policy that disproportionately led to such children being excluded would be obviously discriminatory, and therefore unlawful.

Teachers have a right to be safe in school. If there are insufficient staff to ensure that staff are not attacked then the DCs just cannot be there. For the safety of everyone.

Home tuition may be the answer. or a specialised school. But no teacher should have to put up with violent behaviour at work.

If there are insufficient staff to ensure that staff are not attacked then the DCs just cannot be there.

It is the 1:1 staff working with children with EHCPs who are, generally, those who bear the brunt of this behaviour. Short of very regular physical restraint - which obviously itself causes greater risk of physical attack for the person / people doing the restraining - numbers of staff are not usually the issue.

Yes, special schools might be the answer - but the threshold for access to such schools is EXTREMELY high (especially those schools that focus on children with the most challenging behaviour, rather than those who focus on those with special needs that predominantly affect their learning, though places even in the latter are gold dust), numbers of places FAR too low, and if parents are insistent on their children remaining in mainstream education, it is very difficult for a school on its own to negotiate that transition.

I work in a vairy, vairy naice school, and even I can see that come September, many colleagues and classes will be at greater Covid risk due to children with challenging behaviour. In other schools, that number will be much higher.

What about it being unlawful for a teacher to suffer physical harm and abuse at work? Or the other students?

Obviously children behaving in this way need to be catered to elsewhere - with adequately resourced staff who are trained to handle it. Just expecting teachers and other students to put up with dangerous behaviour is not a solution and disadvantages - and puts in danger - the majority in order to cater to the minority. With a major public health emergency underway it is critical that the principles of public health are upheld in schools.

Of course the chronic underfunding is the major problem.

Ilove,

Well, yes. However, the situation has been the same in schools ever since I started teaching, and thousands of additional special school places etc are not going to suddenly appear due to the pandemic.....it's just that those not in teaching have started to pay attention to it.

and if parents are insistent on their children remaining in mainstream education, it is very difficult for a school on its own to negotiate that transition.

Any child violent towards a teacher used to mean instant expulsion. Time that was the case again. A friend has had to leave the profession after getting a spinal injury that is constant and painful.

Violent children do not belong in mainstream schools. For their safety as well as the adults and the children they need to be excluded.

UIf you would like to write to the DfE, requesting that they put into law the powers that schools will need to be able to exclude all those behaving dangerously in September, and then adequately funding special education such that the many thousands of places needed for the children excluded (and others waiting for a suitable placement) are instantly created, that would be brilliant.

In the interim, however, the fact remains that the process for schools temporarily or permanently excluding children who behave in unsafe ways due to the nature of their SEN is (rightly, in normal times) extremely long and difficult.

If an overwhelmed child with ASD has a meltdown, lashes out and hurts an adult in school, should they be excluded?

Is it their fault?

If mainstream education provides the right level of academic education BUT also comes with a range of demands that they find difficult (itchy uniform, bizzing projector, lots of people, sudden changes in routine) so they sometimes become overwhelmed, what is the right answer?

If a child with global developmental delay, working multiple years behind chronological age but with parents who want them to remain in mainstream until the end of primary acts in a way in line with their developmental age by having a tantrum, throws something and hits their accompanying adult with it, is that their fault? Or blows bubbles with their spit? Should they be excluded?

The local primary SS for those with moderate learning delay is several hundred percent over-subscribed, and only the most determined parents with exactly the right paperwork and willing to spend many months on the process manage to access it.

My DD can be violent in school. She has never once lashed out when calm, she's not disruptive she just wants to be in her own little world doing her own things. She does get violent when her warning signs are missed/not acted on or when a staff member who really doesn't know how to handle her tries to de-escalate because "She needs to get used to other staff members managing her" but those staff members do so awfully. There is a discussion ongoing 're special school but in reality none of the local ones are suitable and we have proven time and time again that when managed well she absolutely is fine to access mainstream, academic education. It's not her fault. She has the social and emotional skills of a 2-2.5 year old. She has the communication skills of a 2.5 year old. I resent the suggestion that she should go without education when arguably she needs to be there more than most other kids.

Also she put a staff member on antibiotics last week biting them, utterly awful. HOWEVER the staff member completely ignored the management plan. The bite wouldn't have happened if it had been followed.

And by managed properly I mean measures such as

Managing transitions within school at her level (warnings and now/next).
Making smart decisions over whether to put her through a drastic change such as when they have a guest speaker in and to prepare her appropriately.
Her sensory diet and calm points (10 mins 4 x per day and lunch away from peers) as standard with additional ones if class is particularly chaotic or if she is showing warning signs.
Pre-emptively preparing for loud noises such as cheering/school bells.
Using indirect demands rather than direct.
Not overly pressuring with work as she is very very sensitive to not being able to do something she is asked to do.

So it isn't huge adjustments that are needed and all provided by her 1-1 to make the difference between a child who is violent and a child who is not a problem at all.

And she has never once harmed the 1-1 who was trained in her needs and capable of meeting them which says it all

Using indirect demands rather than direct

What sort of specific demands are effective here-just out of interest? It sounds like a really comprehensive management plan.

If you would like to write to the DfE, requesting that they put into law the powers that schools will need to be able to exclude all those behaving dangerously in September, and then adequately funding special education such that the many thousands of places needed for the children excluded (and others waiting for a suitable placement) are instantly created, that would be brilliant.

Good idea, I've already written to my MP asking why they've found money to subsidise people eating out but are still chronically underfunding schools during a pandemic. I think a follow up email is probably in order.

Exactly, BKCRMP.

The additional demands on staff, and inevitable staff changes due to illness and self isolation, are going to make life even more confusing and difficult for those who rely on a familiar 1:1 following established routines.

If a child is violent under these conditions, exclusion isn't the answer.

@Letseatgrandma for my DD effect strategies that work include

Choices so "would you like to do this piece of work or this one?" Both would be within the expectations of what she needs to do but she is getting the choice to choose which

Wondering statements instead of commands ie "I wonder how we might.." or "I can't quite see how to do.." instead of "do you work".

Commenting on the work rather than her is also a good one. "This is a really good sentence" rather than "you have written a good sentence"

She can't deal with ambiguity so if she asks a question such as wanting to know what is happening next then showing her on her boards is crucial rather than telling her to focus on what she is doing at the moment or 'i don't know'.

It's little adjustments that really make the difference.

Yes it has hit the fan at school a few times but all purely when her plans aren't followed and always by unfamiliar staff. I know she is fortunate to have full time 1-1 which allows for the adjustments but it genuinely makes the difference between a child who is absolutely fine and doesn't need specialist to one who is violent and can do awful things.

The hardest thing they had to get used to is that she only appears to have the two emotions fine/explosive so we have really had to make sure that everything is in place consistently particularly with known triggers regardless of her appearing fine because she will go from one extreme to the other. At one point they were only doing things like breaks or ear defenders once she was already past it. Once the support staff started to recognise that better it has massively helped. It's too easy to think they are fine and not do something so then suddenly they aren't fine..

I'm thankful school have always fully acknowledged that when she has been violent that it isn't her as such and we can always easily identify where it has gone wrong in the lead up to an incident.

I suspect there are plenty of children who aren't SEN who will breach the hygiene rules just because they want to also.

My daughter had a boy who would spit on other children and flick his bogies across the room in her class last year.

He wasn't SEN, he just wasn't very nice and liked tormenting other children. This sort of behaviour really should have no place in schools in the middle of a pandemic.

@cantkeepawayforever We are very conscious of making sure multiple staff are confident to handle her because of covid. She has her 1-1 but every single day she spends time with a different TA to build those relationships. Her current 1-1 I know has gently pointed out to others when they are doing something against her plan but we are hoping it gives the school a bank of staff as it really does make such a huge difference.

I have to admit I'm also not an included in everything at all costs parent. I'm not going to put her through things which I know are a massive issue (nativities is one example) for the sheer sake of her being included. She doesn't want to do them either but I would rather she missed something thsn it be a major trigger. Or school have had to ring maybe 3 times since September to say staffing is an issue in terms of the staff not being suitable for her and asked what I would like to do.

They have never excluded her from anything without consulting me but I will get emails of "we are planning... What do you think". I know the choice is mine.

But again she has full time 1-1 which allows this and I have a good relationship with the school so we are both comfortable having those conversations.

I can't imagine trying to deal with her without 1-1 or trying to work with a parent who isn't the easiest or when there are multiple kids with similar/conflicting difficulties so I know we are lucky BUT it does prove a lot of these children are perfectly suitable to be in mainstream if they are supported correctly.