Are Jewish people BAME?

[novacaneforthepain]

I have looked this up and find so many different answers. Does anyone know for a fact?

I have three Jewish grandparents (German, Austrian and Italian) and one non Jewish grandparent (Irish). I have pale skin, blue eyes and brown hair. I tick 'white other', but would tick Jewish if that was an option.

I have had anti-, Jewish remarks and issues with some white men, especially those from a protestant background. They consider Jewish people as not white and some consider anyone who is not a white protestant as 'non white'.

I have some non white friends who were brought up as Jewish, eg. those with Ethiopian or Arab ancestry.

Are you basically saying that people you perceive to be left wing want BAME people to all be really poor because otherwise it undermines our belief that they are victims of systemic racism? If so, I find that bizarre.

Yes that is basically what some people on Twitter seem to be arguing. I noticed this particularly in tweets following Priti Patel's comments. Clearly not all left wing people see things this way.

And yes, lower vitamin D levels are associated with Covid. The darker your skin is, the harder it is to absorb vitamin D from the sun.

@Floatyboat priti patel is a really unpleasant person. But literally no one who understood the definition of systemic racism would think all BAME people needed to be poor for it to take place. It’s ridiculous.

I’m Jewish, and no, I do not consider myself to be BAME. I can’t explain why, I just don’t. It might just be the simple fact that my ancestors were a mix of Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, from Holland, Poland and Estonia, so I am ‘white’ in appearance. I also consider myself to be Jewish foremost, and white British secondly, even though I was born in London and my father’s family migrated from Poland in the late 1700s.

I am Jewish because my mother was Jewish, her mother was Jewish, repeat, repeat, repeat.

I have never heard of Jews being part of BAME before this thread, so find it a little curious tbh.

@okiedokieme

Jewish is a religion, people can be of any ethnic group, certain orthodox groups are of one ethnic group but have no idea if they are higher risk, I doubt it because most have Eastern European heritage. My friend is conservative Jew and white British, it's like saying are Hindus higher risk just because most Hindus are from a certain ethnic background but not all.

I disagree with this. Judaism is an ethnicity and a religion, although, it is a matrilineal religion, so unless you’re born from a Jewish mother, you’re not a Jew. As mentioned in a different post, I consider myself foremost a Jew, and I’m white British second. It’s the latter I tick when filling in forms.

Even though I do not practice, and am not religious, I am still a Jew. Many Jews consider themselves to be culturally Jewish, and not religious.

Isn't this part of the divisive nature of what is currently happening?

It's become almost an oppression Olympics.

My family were Polish Jews. On another thread a BLM supporter informed me that my relatives have never known persecution because they are white.

How can we hope to have conversations about any of this if we have to have a hierarchy of oppression?

@catsandlavender

You'd think wouldn't you.

When ticking a box about your ethnicity isn’t there usually a separate box asking about your religion?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras - it does seem to have turned into an oppression Olympics. I’m jewish too and white Jews as well as white people from many different backgrounds can suffer racism and bigotry. I don’t see any benefits in trying to pretend only one “type” of person can suffer racism.

What’s that got to do with anything, Laburnam?

Not always but yes I’d say so.

As a group of people have definitely felt the effect of being a minority ethnic group.

Im a white Jew. I understood (but don't have the facts to back it up) that Jews (non converts, so i mean the children of at least one Jewish parent) share a common genetic heritage. Which classifies Jewish as a race (not merely a religion). So you can be racially Jewish but not a practising Jew and vv. I wouldn't classify myself as BAME, but I certainly don't see myself as 'white British' either. I tick 'white other' when given the option. I don't know if I consider myself more at risk from Covid because of my heritage. Certainly my day to day lifestyle is radically different from the Orthodox Hassidim that live only a few miles away from me. But maybe my ethnicity might make me more at risk? Hard to tell without a strong understanding of the science.

Ps waves at other Jews on mumsnet! Haven't been aware of many of us here before

Interesting question. I am white non-Jewish.
I would have said no.
I then think I consider Jewish people here in the uk to be a religious and a cultural minority. I then need to think more about what the word ethnic actually means and why I don’t consider Jewish people to be BAME. It’s complex and I’m so outside of the experience I’m not sure I know at all.

Only the Nazis categorised Jews as a race.

It is a religion, and as such people from all over the world are Jewish. Some will be BAME, some not.

BlessYourCottonSocks, as I (and others) have noted repeatedly, British law recognises Jews as an ethnic and cultural group as well as a religious one.

I think a white Jewish or Muslim person who doesn’t wear religious dress shouldn’t be classed as BAME. Those who do wear religious dress would be a white minority ethnic group - in the same way some travellors are.

Well the M E stands for minority ethnic so yeah. But I can empathise with a lot of posters on here in that I belong to an ethnic minority but I don’t feel like I belong/am welcome at BAME type things because I am white or certainly Caucasian with pale skin depending on your view of white. A lot of people assume that your skin shade somehow makes you a part of the majority and in a way it does but equally it doesn’t protect you from genocide apparently, nor does it mean that other white people will accept you once they suss out exactly what you are.

@GrumpyHoonMain you do realise that your religion doesn’t affect your ethnicity? You must also realise that apostate minorities are amongst the most marginalised people in our society.

I think a white Jewish or Muslim person who doesn’t wear religious dress shouldn’t be classed as BAME. Those who do wear religious dress would be a white minority ethnic group - in the same way some travellors are.

Lol.

White Muslim converts are not at all an ethnic group because they only have a recent philosophical view.

White secular Jews may be an ethnic group since they have shared culture, names and other markers which identify them as Jewish, even if they don't believe.

For example someone called 'Goldsmith' is going to attract foaming hatred from far left and far right simply because of their name. The far right will look for white people expressing pro-LGBT or other views and seek to identify them as Jewish as distinct from white.

The far left will look at people with Jewish names in politics and finance and blame them for everything.

They are clearly identifiable as an ethnicity because they are noted in media as Jews, have names, may look slightly different from white people in various characteristics. French people are also an ethnicity and can be identified similarly but for UK statistical purposes are grouped as white Other, along with Jews (who may also identify as white British)

Travellers are specifically separately identified as an ethnicity in UK statistical terms. Jews are not.

Ashkenazi, no.
Sephardic or Mizrahi Jewish, yes, you’d be BAME.

I haven't read the full thread but Jews come in all colours - black eg Ethiopeans and others from the African continent, brown from India, yellow from China and Japan and white from Europe etc so we are a totally mixed bag.

I'm white, Jewish and non-religious and do consider myself BAME but am pretty certain I wouldn't be treated as such because I am white IYSWIM.

TheVanguardSix You've just proved my point but why should Sephardim be treated as BAME and not Ashkenazis? We are all ethnically Jewish and should be treated the same whatever the colour of our skin.

I think another way to approach this question is to define whiteness. Outside of academic studies I see very little discussion on it. The terms we use in the UK have developed in response to particular social circumstances here. In other contexts they are irrelevant. e.g. a Somali in Somalia would not be asked if they identify as Black African because there would be no reason for such a categorisation. It only becomes relevant in the UK when they fall into a minority and where minorities may be subject to racism.

Therefore no one can say definitively that Jews are or aren't 'white'. Do Jews fall into a minority that may face racism and discrimination? They certainly can, regardless of whether they identify as 'white' or 'BAME'.

This brings us round to the question again: what is whiteness? Is it skin colour or is it something deeper?