Are Jewish people BAME?

[novacaneforthepain]

I have looked this up and find so many different answers. Does anyone know for a fact?

Can I ask a question please ?
Its not a goady one

My eldest son had his DNA done and found, among other things, 1% Jewish. This is correct as on his dads side a gt gt grandmother of my son was Jewish . Question coming ... Why would what is a religion show as dna ? Very curious.

It depends on the individual, some Jewish people are also ethnically Jewish, others aren’t.

A friends wife is Jewish (as in the religion) but she is not ethnically Jewish. A number of South African Jews (like her) are not ethnically Jewish.

Because for centuries jewish people had children with other jewish people.

You might have missed this study

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/coronaviruscovid19relateddeathsbyreligiousgroupenglandandwales/2marchto15may2020

I think the findings are interesting because the media was determined that black and South Asian Muslims were being subject to racism via covid-19 (how not exactly clear). But there was a lot of muddled thinking.

Anyway, it turns out that Jews are 2.4x more likely to have died than their % of the population, whereas Muslims were 30% less likely to have died than their % of the population.

Adjusting for the much younger average age of Muslims and you get a higher risk, but in terms of the raw death count (highest as % of population of any group) and the excess risk, and the evidence is overwhelming for Jews having been more likely to die from covid-19.

Yet the BBC for example has posted literally dozens of articles about 'BAME risk' and just one single article about the Jewish death rate

www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-52731506/losing-a-beacon-of-light-of-the-uk-s-ultra-orthodox-community-to-coronavirus

And while there is no hesitation about blaming these deaths on Jews' religious and social practices, the only people suggesting a link between the Islamic religion and death risk are far right, and instead we are told that Muslims are at risk because of their ethnicity

theconversation.com/coronavirus-conspiracy-theories-and-fake-videos-fuel-rise-in-islamophobia-137107

So there is a difference about implied agency

Jews are 'white' and 'rich' and there are hints of anti-semitic tropes about their behaviour spreading disease, the BBC says only 'has the often social nature of Judaism also played a role?'

While South Asian Muslims are deemed victim groups who are 'hit by' covid-19 (implying no agency), and anyone linking mosques, etc. to spread of disease is a racist.

For example, the BBC leads with

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53035054

"Racism 'could play a part in BAME Covid deaths'"

I find it interesting that the BBC repeatedly uses the word 'ultra-Orthodox' in reporting on covid-19 in Israel

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52149316
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-52189059/coronavirus-israel-s-ultra-orthodox-lockdown-challenge

as well as making its sole report on covid-19 deaths among UK Jews

about a 'beacon of light in the ultra-Orthodox community'.

This was a 20-year-old man with Down's Syndrome.

It is frankly bizarre to describe him as 'a beacon of light in the ultra-Orthodox community'.

Would they describe a 20 year old Muslim with Down's Syndrome as a 'beacon of light among fundamentalist Muslims'?

From the headline you would imagine he was some sort of hell & damnation preacher, rather than a nice young man who happened to be Jewish.

The BBC would not describe people as 'fundamentalist Muslims' unless they had preached something very extreme.

@ElizabethG81 yes this is why I am asking. I want to know if this makes me more susceptible to COVID, or other illnesses

@ShootsFruitAndLeaves

That's a very good post. Thanks. I saw someone suggest regional variation plays a part in the stats. Ie more Jewish people in London and more covid in london. Do you know if that's true?

No, I wouldn't class them as BAME unless they weren't white. It seems BAME is used to group together anyone who isn't white (personally I think the term is awful). Also, to the poster who said Indians don't fall under BAME? Please explain how Indians, who are not white and classed as Asian are not part of BAME

OP, I think it's very complex and no one has really untangled whether BAME groups have suffered more from Covid due to cultural and societal differences, or whether it can be attributed to genetic differences.

In terms of other diseases, Ashkenazi Jews are more susceptible to some illnesses due to genetic variants.

My father was Jewish. Born in Germany. His father was Ashkenazi/Eastern European heritage, his mother Sephardic/Spanish/Portugese heritage. My mother is half Russian (not Jewish) and half English.

I consider myself European. I am a practicing Anglican. I also consider myself as half Jewish. I am white, brown haired (naturally), dark eyed and tan very easily. My family's wealth purchased a very English lifestyle.

I do not consider myself BAME, I appear the epitomy of upper middle class Englishness. I could as easily have adopted and emphasised darker hair and colouring and appeared very Jewish.

I am quite comfortable with all sorts of people.

Somewhere from my sub conscious I think a higher proportion of Jewish people are blood group A. Might that be a factor.

Also, to the poster who said Indians don't fall under BAME?

They obviously do. My point was there are people on the left who would rather they didn't.

That's a very good post. Thanks. I saw someone suggest regional variation plays a part in the stats. Ie more Jewish people in London and more covid in london. Do you know if that's true?

They adjust for region, socio economic status, age, stc. Most Bangladeshi people live in Tower Hamlets for example, so an adjustment by region would be quite effective at adjusting out the strict geographical spread, in that I believe the regions are London, SE England, E England, etc.

I'm not sure how concentrated the Jewish population is in London, but there are also Jewish populations in Bury, Salford, Birmingham, Hertsmere etc. , which are not London.

Hertsmere has the highest raw covid-19 death rate in the UK and contains the largest Jewish community in Borehamwood. The spread of covid-19 beyond London was quite weak in that if you get two boroughs south you find very low death rates, so it does seem that there is very clearly excess death risk associated simply with being Jewish beyond any coincidental factor about geography.

It seems that the same is true for Muslims, but there is different language used. Muslims are said to have health inequalities and systemic racism in employment. Whereas from what I've seen in this thread and elsewhere, Judaism itself (or 'ultra-Orthodox') is outright blamed for spreading disease.

It seems to me that it is possible for both Jewish social, cultural and religious practices to have spread the disease, AND for that to be true of Muslims.

But, it doesn't seem like it's thought about in the same way. 'Ultra-Orthodox' Jews are 'insular' and spreading covid-19.

The Guardian says

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/my-rabbis-tools-now-include-a-phone-uk-jewish-burials-changed-by-covid-19

"There have also been concerns that pockets of ultra-Orthodox, or Haredi, Jews – the fastest growing sector of British Jewry – did not heed messages in the early days to close synagogues and practise physical distancing"

"Amid reports of men congregating in synagogues, and some weddings and funerals flouting distancing guidance, community leaders in London and Manchester organised fliers in Yiddish to be posted through letterboxes and for messages to be broadcast via loudhailers from cars driving through Haredi neighbourhoods.

This week, about 300 Haredi Jews in north London celebrated the festival of Lag B’Omer with bonfires and gatherings where physical distancing was not observed, "

*It seems to me that it is possible for both Jewish social, cultural and religious practices to have spread the disease, AND for that to be true of Muslims.

But, it doesn't seem like it's thought about in the same way. 'Ultra-Orthodox' Jews are 'insular' and spreading covid-19.*

Totally agree.

Thanks for clarifying it was controlled for region.

I'm half Jewish- 25% Ashkenazi and 25% Sephardic. I'm pale and dark haired, and don't look typically British but pass as North European and am treated as such.

My DH is mixed race- 50% black and 50% white English. Much darker skinned and treated very differently to me.

DS has come out blonde with green eyes. We have to frequently inform medical staff or education professionals to not tick the 'white British' box as it's relevant that DS isn't for some medical purposes.

Jews are BAME like Romany/travellers are BAME.

Phenotype is a weird thing as I've worked with Syrians who unless they told you their names pass as white British on looks. Likewise there are white British people who look like they are from a BAME background.

Ethnicity is done by skin colour though. Travellers are classed separately within the white group as an ethnicity, but Jews are not.

'Muslim' is almost identical to 'Bangladeshi and Pakistani', which the covid-19 deaths are grouping.

So the stats are considering Muslim South Asians and non-Muslim South Asians essentially as two ethnicities, while travellers are considered an ethnicity already, but Jewish people are not.
94% of British Jews identify as white.

It seems that they are as much of an ethnicity as travellers, but are not officially recorded as such.

What an uncomfortable thread. Jewish people are an ethnic group and therefore should be assessed when looking at possible discrimination. As for an individual in their daily life, It should be up to each individual if they feel it's useful to identify themselves as BAME or not in various circumstances, and not up to anyone else to do that for them.

Regarding covid there needs to be an analysis done on the risk factors of all groups; the diabetes risk has been identified genetically as affecting South Asians and this looks like a factor with India's cases too, if there is any other genetic risk factor for other groups of people then that needs to be urgently assessed for shielding and vaccine prioritisation. It's interesting that neither Eastern Europe nor Middle East seem to have particularly high death rates, if there are genetic factors. Is it just that those areas haven't been hit as hard yet (Middle East cases are all rising now though)?

@ElizabethG81 yes this is why I am asking. I want to know if this makes me more susceptible to COVID, or other illnesses

No religion has nothing to do with it. its biological. The darker the skin the harder it is to make vitamin D which is important in the fight against covid. Also the elderly don't make as much vit D as younger people. This is the reason doctors believe BAME groups are more at risk.

Jewish people are an ethnic groupJewish people are an ethnic group

This factually incorrect in UK statistical terms where Jewish people are classed as a religious group

It should be up to each individual if they feel it's useful to identify themselves as BAME or not in various circumstances, and not up to anyone else to do that for them.

Lol wot? We've decided as a society that men can identify as women , but white people identifying as black is not allowed.

OhTheRoses my DH is pretty much you (with mother & father reversed), except he’s very much not a practicing Anglican though educated in that tradition - while atheist he feels very Jewish. He doesn’t really think of himself as BAME

I saw quite a bit of manoeuvring on social media from the left in the run-up to the general election to redefine Jews as a ‘privileged minority.’ The new prejudice is the same as the old prejudice, just dressed up differently and touted by the politically ‘pure’ . I’m seeing it happen now to Hindus, being redefined and ‘othered’ by certain political elements..

No religion has nothing to do with it. its biological. The darker the skin the harder it is to make vitamin D which is important in the fight against covid. Also the elderly don't make as much vit D as younger people. This is the reason doctors believe BAME groups are more at risk

Which doctors believe this?

The clear fact is that ethnic minorities are more likely to have caught covid-19. This is not at all linked to Vitamin D levels, but rather to exposure

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7204679/

It's certain that religious practices have spread covid-19.

The clear conclusion is that BAME Britain are more likely to have caught covid-19, not because of Vitamin D deficiency but because of exposure.

More infections = more deaths.

Vitamin D deficiency may increase mortality risk following infection, but the extra infections itself are sufficient for extra deaths.

The risk due to age is not due to Vitamin D deficiency but because age predicts mortality, and the older you get the more likely you are to die. This is true with illness generally though some cancers such as breast cancer affect younger people on average than others.

Older people, even the healthy old, are weaker from biology than the young. There body is enfeebled in all kinds of ways , and this is the major risk factor for death .

Seriously, WHAT are you talking about floaty? Myself and my friends are all FAR left and honestly - I’ve never heard a single person say they wish Indian people weren’t BAME.
Are you basically saying that people you perceive to be left wing want BAME people to all be really poor because otherwise it undermines our belief that they are victims of systemic racism? If so, I find that bizarre.

I'm Jewish but don't practice the religion. When my brother had cancer we went through genetic counselling and testing because of the Ashkenazi link. My children and I have been beaten up and had swastikas drawn on our stuff. I'm white and in a lot of situations I have no problems - I don't feel as much at risk of violence as my black and Muslim friends. But my heritage affects my life and my children's lives.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/17/uk-ministers-order-urgent-vitamin-d-coronavirus-review

www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(20)30183-2/fulltext

@Floatyboat

Also, to the poster who said Indians don't fall under BAME?

They obviously do. My point was there are people on the left who would rather they didn't.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Never heard of anyone wishing Indians weren't considered BAME

lower vitamin D shows a higher death rate particularly in the BAME groups. where was it ever stated that BAME groups have a higher chance of contracting covid. the only risk talked about has been death rate or severity.