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The Government were telling the truth. They followed scientific advice all along.

235 replies

NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite · 01/06/2020 20:14

www.thesun.co.uk/news/11757540/boris-advice-mistakes/

According to official papers released on Friday, Boris Johnson has been following the scientific advice all along. (Forgive me if I'm late to the party but I haven't seen anything about this until today).

It was SAGE who said we shouldn't lock down earlier.
It was SAGE who says Cheltenham and Stereophonics gigs should go ahead as they were low risk.
It was SAGE who said a travel ban would just postpone the epidemic by one month.
It was SAGE who, on February 18, wrongly advised "When there is sustained transmission in the UK, contact tracing will no longer be useful.”

Well done to Boris Johnson and the Govt for trusting in and following scientific advice (even though that advice turned out to be wrong).

Boris Johnson wasn't blindly taking own action after all. Even though SAGE got things wrong, it was right to follow their advice. It was and is a difficult situation but we need to give credit to BJ and co, where it is due.

OP posts:
strugglingwithdeciding · 04/06/2020 01:06

@weepingwillow the uk did not have highway death toll per capita on 5th both Spain and Belgium weee above
And you keep mentioning not joining an Eu scheme that never delivered ppe in time for when we were desperate along with the whole world
A lot of Europeans countries has ppe issues there was a worldwide shortage after all

HeIenaDove · 04/06/2020 01:19

Private Eye Magazine
@PrivateEyeNews
·
13h
Boris Johnson hosted a baby shower for Carrie Symonds at Chequers just two days before announcing "now is the time for everyone to stop non-essential contact with others" - yet more "necessary" travel from Downing Street revealed in the new Private Eye

twitter.com/PrivateEyeNews/status/1268120107412316160?s=20

weepingwillow22 · 04/06/2020 05:27

[quote strugglingwithdeciding]@weepingwillow what the Eu ppe scheme which never delivered in time ?
And how about the WHO who advises not to shut borders ?
Lots of Mia information about at first
Yes There has been mistakes but hindsight is great , but nightingale hospitals being built and funded and other things being done are good , you can't knock every single thing without at least acknowledging something that was done right [/quote]
I am yet to see an evidence of anything done right. Even the Nightingale hospitals were an example of a misdirected resource especially when so many people were just left to die at home and covid patients were being sent back to care homes. For example
www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1860

'Just 51 patients have been treated at the 4000 bed medical facility situated in the refurbished Excel Centre in London’s Docklands since it opened. Nightingale units in Birmingham and Harrogate have not treated a single patient, while a facility in Manchester has had just a handful of admissions.

Charles Knight, the chief executive of Nightingale London, announced on 4 May that no more covid-19 patients were likely to be admitted to the facility. “As a result, after the last patient leaves, the hospital will be placed on standby, ready to resume operations as needed, in line with others around the country,” he said in a statement.

But some doctors have questioned the need for so much extra capacity.

One consultant, who works in mental health at a London teaching hospital and wanted to remain anonymous, said, “Was it a disproportionate use of funding and resources, given what’s happened in care homes, dementia wards, and prisons? The Nightingale hospitals might have been done for the best reasons, but there’s a danger that they’re going to be seen as white elephants.”

Richard Sullivan, director of the Institute of Cancer Policy at King’s College London, said that the government and senior NHS officials had overreacted to the media coverage of scenes in Italian hospitals and had been unduly swayed by “simplistic” modelling of the pandemic.

“The Italian doctors were intubating far too many people. That would not have happened in British intensive care units,” he said. “The trouble is that Neil Ferguson’s modelling was wildly exaggerated. You cannot rely on a model to predict what happens with a pandemic. There are too many variables.

“You need good local intelligence to work out what transmissions rates really are; this did not appear to have happened.”

Please feel free to share evidence of anything that has not been a complete shambles.

weepingwillow22 · 04/06/2020 05:37

[quote strugglingwithdeciding]@TwigTheWonderKid but not all are reporting all deaths we include all some don't include in the community etc so hard to make direct comparison [/quote]
This is why we use excess mortality figures (the number of deaths compared to thre same period in previous years) to make comparisions.

On this basis the UK fares even worse
www.ft.com/content/6b4c784e-c259-4ca4-9a82-648ffde71bf0

liaun · 04/06/2020 05:55

Why are people still reading the Sun?!

Clavinova · 04/06/2020 10:04

*How many were behavioural scientists so beloved of Cummings?

Two in the main group according to the Guardian.

If behavioural scientists are so beloved of Dominic Cummings but not anyone else, why do the Guardian keep running articles featuring behavioural scientists, in particular Professor Susan Michie? And why is she one of the 12 members of the rival SAGE group if only Dominic Cummings advocates behavioural scientists?

The Guardian - rival Sage group - Prof Susan Michie, a behavioural psychologist at UCL;

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/rival-sage-group-covid-19-policy-clarified-david-king

The Guardian -
"Private schools’ land targeted for families without gardens."

Prof Susan Michie, [director of the centre for behaviour change at University College London (UCL)]

..."said that private green spaces should be officially commandeered by the state to ensure everyone can exercise safely while maintaining social distancing."

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/12/private-schools-land-targeted-for-families-without-gardens

The Guardian;
"Top experts not asked to approve 'stay alert' coronavirus message" ... "the group had “considerable expertise” on health behaviour and emergency communications which had hardly been called on by the government." ... "Prof Susan Michie, of University College London, tweeted" ... etc. etc.

Evening Standard, August 2018;

^"Susan Michie, [a professor of Health Psychology at UCL],
Communist Party member and ex-wife of one of Jeremy Corbyn’s closest advisers, donated £14,000 to Corbyn’s Labour Party, according to Electoral Commission records."^

www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-communists-14k-labour-donation-a3905511.html

Clavinova · 04/06/2020 10:09

Boris Johnson hosted a baby shower for Carrie Symonds at Chequers just two days before announcing "now is the time for everyone to stop non-essential contact with others"

"The party is understood to have been held on 14th March - around a month before the baby's birth and around a week before the UK went in to lockdown."

chomalungma · 04/06/2020 10:19

The party is understood to have been held on 14th March - around a month before the baby's birth and around a week before the UK went in to lockdown

Wasn't that an interesting week...

People beginning to stockpile, some people refusing to take their children to school.

I know I avoided large groups around that time.

But others didn't. Seemingly not even those with access to scientific advice - there was SAGE guidance that Covid 19 was very likely to be spread in small groups where people were close together for long periods. And that advice came out before March 14th.

KenDodd · 04/06/2020 10:27

Well BJ said yesterday he takes full responsibility for covid response and it proud of his record.

chomalungma · 04/06/2020 10:30

Gatherings

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/873748/12-spi-m-o-consensus-view-on-public-gatherings.pdf

Smaller gatherings such as bars and nightclubs are higher risk as you can be in closer contact withothers. Family gatherings are particularly high risk as they bring people into closer contact. Similarly, religious services with a high level of physical contact would be higher risk. Some activities are be higher risk because they are disproportionatelydepended by older groups.

Clavinova · 04/06/2020 10:32

Wasn't that an interesting week..

Indeed;
www.euronews.com/2020/03/10/watch-dutch-pm-rutte-bans-handshaking-and-then-shakes-hands

chomalungma · 04/06/2020 10:38

It's fucked up thinking when your partner is pregnant and there is a virulent disease going around and you have people who you work with who are aware of the scientific advice to then have a baby shower just a few days before announcing that all non essential contact should be banned.

What's the point in inside information if you aren't going to use it?

Clavinova · 04/06/2020 10:44

Perhaps they held the baby shower in the garden?

chomalungma · 04/06/2020 10:52

Perhaps they held the baby shower in the garden

2m apart, not going to the toilet, and not touching anything?

Perhaps.....................

Clavinova · 04/06/2020 11:14

Do we think Boris Johnson tells her what to do? By all accounts, the glass smashing argument they had last year was Carrie Symonds having a tantrum - the other neighbour (not the Labour activist) said all she could hear was an angry woman shouting.

Both of my dc attended school until the 20th March.

chomalungma · 04/06/2020 11:20

Do we think Boris Johnson tells her what to do

I am sure they both have sensible discussions and he puts forward his point of view in the manner we are accustomed to whilst he listens to her and puts herself in her shoes with reflective listening.....

TheSandman · 04/06/2020 11:24

the other neighbour (not the Labour activist) said all she could hear was an angry woman shouting.

Well unless Dom was in there as well BloJob wouldn't have know what to yell, would he? It's very difficult to shout, "Erm yes erm erm. Erm! erm! I'll get back to you on that."

Clavinova · 04/06/2020 11:35

We could always ask a behavioural psychologist - oh wait, we don't like behavioural scientists unless they are Guardian reading members of the Communist Party. Grin

chomalungma · 04/06/2020 11:37

We could always ask a behavioural psychologist - oh wait, we don't like behavioural scientists unless they are Guardian reading members of the Communist Party

A behavioural scientist would have a field day with Johnson.

I wonder how much he does Type 1 thinking?

iwantmysay · 04/06/2020 12:12

Johnson went ahead with the 14 day travel quarantine, despite the scientists saying its a waste of time now and that incoming travellers have more to fear from UK border force officials.

So who cares the further damage this will do to the travel, air and ferry businesses? so long as political face is saved.

Chaos under Miliband is looking more & more like Utophia with every day that passes.

HeIenaDove · 04/06/2020 14:26

"The party is understood to have been held on 14th March - around a month before the baby's birth and around a week before the UK went in to lockdown

It's a story because the government delayed lockdown so they could have a party. The timing wasn't "guided by the science", it was guided by Boris's social calendar. People were asking why we didn't lockdown earlier and this is the reason why.

chomalungma · 04/06/2020 14:30

People were asking why we didn't lockdown earlier and this is the reason why

I am no fan of Boris but I doubt that even he is as careless as to delay a lockdown because of a party.

I just think he didn't know the scientific advice about small gatherings because he's not a details person and hadn't bothered asking.

iwantmysay · 04/06/2020 14:37

I am no fan of Boris but I doubt that even he is as careless as to delay a lockdown because of a party

A few months ago, i would have said Helena was crazy but now, after seeing how the NHS /PHE/Govt dumped CV infected patients into care homes, stripped them of PPE, don't allow routine testing and the 14 day travel quarantine fiasco, i suspect a delay for a party would be perfectly fine with Johnson.
oh and allowing the easing of lockdown even though we are still at level 4.

After all he wanted herd immunity and we appear to be getting it by the back door, so why not?

chomalungma · 04/06/2020 15:16

Haven't heard it yet - but Guardian podcast looking at scientific advice on large gatherings

www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2020/jun/04/from-anfield-to-cheltenham-did-major-events-cost-lives-podcast

Mumratheevergiving · 04/06/2020 16:21

Channel 4 Dispatches is well worth watching for an expose of the UK handling of Coronavirus. It does not make comfortable viewing.

And missingthepointofthread I thought Johnson was all about British pomp and ceremony not the new US import of a ‘baby shower’

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