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The Government were telling the truth. They followed scientific advice all along.

235 replies

NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite · 01/06/2020 20:14

www.thesun.co.uk/news/11757540/boris-advice-mistakes/

According to official papers released on Friday, Boris Johnson has been following the scientific advice all along. (Forgive me if I'm late to the party but I haven't seen anything about this until today).

It was SAGE who said we shouldn't lock down earlier.
It was SAGE who says Cheltenham and Stereophonics gigs should go ahead as they were low risk.
It was SAGE who said a travel ban would just postpone the epidemic by one month.
It was SAGE who, on February 18, wrongly advised "When there is sustained transmission in the UK, contact tracing will no longer be useful.”

Well done to Boris Johnson and the Govt for trusting in and following scientific advice (even though that advice turned out to be wrong).

Boris Johnson wasn't blindly taking own action after all. Even though SAGE got things wrong, it was right to follow their advice. It was and is a difficult situation but we need to give credit to BJ and co, where it is due.

OP posts:
chomalungma · 02/06/2020 10:27

But mn should def run any future pandemics as there are loads of experts on here

There probably are.

And the Government itself ran a pandemic exercise back in 2016

From which lessons weren't learnt.

Notejode · 02/06/2020 10:28

Have you seen this governments record on lying? Especially Johnson and Cummings?

I have seen the witch hunt and two lefties newspapers full of opinions and little facts.

chomalungma · 02/06/2020 10:29

yes the information given has been regular and clear, yes the strategy appears to be working, yes the economic plans have been well thought out and helpful

Didn't the strategy change?

Credit with the economic plans so far though - the furlough scheme has been good.

weepingwillow22 · 02/06/2020 10:30

@chomalungma

I would love to see the discussions about Cheltenham and large festivals.

It doesn't seem to make sense - unless they were of the view that the virus was already in the UK so it was going to spread no matter what happened so what the heck, go ahead with it...

Otherwise - people from around the country go to Cheltenham, get infected and then go back to where they came from.

There is interesting discussion about the government's decision making re Cheltenham and other big events here.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jgb1
From the Olympics to Euro 2020, the world’s biggest sporting events have fallen like dominoes because of coronavirus. But as the global pandemic was declared and most European countries closed their sports stadiums, the UK allowed events to carry on with hundreds of thousands of fans coming together to watch everything from Champions League football to the Cheltenham Gold Cup. File on 4 casts a forensic eye over the decisions that were made before the UK went into lockdown, speaks to those at the heart of these big events and asks whether allowing them to go ahead, enabled the virus to spread and put more lives at risk.

Scientific research established that the decision of the Johnson government to permit mass-attended sporting events to go ahead in March directly contributed to the spread of the coronavirus and the number of fatalities.

On March 10, the Cheltenham horse racing festival opened, attracting crowds of 250,000 over the four-day event. The following day in the north of England, Liverpool hosted a football match against Atletico Madrid at its Anfield stadium. Some 52,000 fans watched, including 3,000 Spanish fans from Madrid.

Speaking to BBC RadioFile on 4programme, “Game Changer: How the UK played on during coronavirus,” Professor Tim Spector said, “I think sporting events should have been shut down at least a week earlier because they’ll have caused increased suffering and deaths that wouldn’t otherwise have occurred.” Spector is Professor of Genetic Epidemiology at King’s College London.

Ignoring the World Health Organization’s (WHO) announcement on January 30 that the emergence of the novel SARS-Cov-2 (coronavirus) represented a “public health emergency of international concern,” the Conservative government made no preparations to stop its spread in Britain. Valuable weeks were lost while the virus took hold in the UK in February and early March.

When countries on the continent were banning mass gatherings in early March, Tory Prime Minister Boris Johnson said it was “business as usual.” Culture Secretary Oliver Dowden agreed, “There’s no reason for people not to attend such events or to cancel them at this stage.”

In Ireland, the planned Six Nations rugby match in Dublin was called off by the authorities, as well as St. Patrick’s Day celebrations. Football matches in northern Italy, where the virus was running rife, were banned. In China, the Grand Prix had been postponed as part of virus containment.

The first weeks of March was a busy time in the UK for sporting events and provided an ideal vector for the spread of the virus. Professional league football went ahead as planned in England and Scotland. The government’s main scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, insisted it was fine to attend events in stadiums on the basis that transmission of the coronavirus occurred mainly within families and between friends.

On March 7, Johnson and his heavily pregnant partner Carrie Symonds, joined the 81,000 crowd at the Six Nations Rugby tournament between England and Wales in Twickenham. The same day, Leicester City football club played Aston Villa with 32,000 fans in attendance. Both Johnson and Symonds both later contracted the virus, and Johnson—who was rushed into hospital on April 5 after being ill for weeks—almost died.

Journalist Melanie Finn, visiting from Ireland, described the atmosphere at the races, “It was like the last days of the Roman Empire, and I think there was a little bit of a sense that if it was open, by God they were going to party.” Afraid there “could be an unmitigated disaster and the crowds were huge,” Finn left for home two days into the event. A week later, she developed COVID-19 symptoms and had to take two weeks off work.

At the time, the Department of Health and Social Care reported 373 cases of COVID-19. Imperial College London and the University of Oxford, however, estimated there were 640,000 cases in Spain, and already 100,000 in the UK, but this was no matter, as far as the government was concerned.

On March 11, the WHO declared coronavirus a global pandemic. WHO Director-General Doctor Tedros Adhanom said he was “deeply concerned both by the alarming levels of spread and severity and by the alarming levels of inaction [by governments].”

That evening, the gates opened at Anfield football ground—located in a densely populated area of Liverpool—and the fans crowded in. The 3,000 visiting fans from Madrid joined Liverpool supporters in bars and restaurants. At that point, Madrid was the epicentre of the coronavirus outbreak in Spain, and the Atletico football club and the Spanish government cautioned against travelling to the UK for the match.

The only concession to the pandemic was the absence of pre-match handshakes.

Liverpool supporter Joel Rookwood believes he contracted the virus that night and was ill for eight weeks. “The celebrations were some of the most physical that I’ve experienced,” he told the BBC. “People were jumping all over each other.”

From an analysis of NHS statistics, data modelling group Edge Health concluded 41 people died after attending the game, 25–35 days after the match.

One victim was Liverpool fan, Richard Mawson. Aged 70, Mawson went to the game and began experiencing symptoms two weeks later. He died in Anfield Hospital on April 17. His wife Mary and son Jamie are demanding a full inquiry into why the game was allowed to go ahead. Mary told BBC News that her husband was a fit and healthy man, who went to the gym two or three times a week.

She said, “Obviously, the coronavirus was going around, but when your government is standing up and saying, ‘Oh it’s fine, go ahead’ and you’re a lifelong supporter and you feel so passionate about them, you go with what your government tells you.

“Cheltenham was on, so everything was alright according to the government, which then, the following week, they decide they were going on lockdown. But the government acted too late; they knew this was coming up, but they didn’t do anything about it.”

Jamie commented, “My dad seldom went out, maybe to pick my daughter up from work. Given the time when he developed the symptoms and then he became really ill, then two weeks after that he passed away, I’m 99 percent certain he did pick it up from the game.

“He had to walk past the away fans, the Atlético fans, and I’m 99 percent certain he did pick it up from that game. But for us as a family it’s so difficult to take because ... he was 70, but he was fit and healthy, he had no underlying health issues, and for him to deteriorate in such a fashion, it’s very hard for us to take.”

The Liverpool supporters’ club, Spirit of Shankly, had voiced concerns at a safety meeting two days before the match, which was chaired by Labour-led Liverpool City Council. But the meeting declared that only football’s governing body UEFA could stop the match, which should go ahead anyway because of government advice.

The Jockey Club said it was following “clear and ongoing guidance” from the government, so horse racing at Cheltenham continued according to schedule, as well as other public events.

Former chief scientific adviser (2000–2007) Sir David King condemned the decision to proceed with Cheltenham as “reckless” and “foolhardy,” saying that the event contributed to the appalling number of COVID-19 deaths. He toldFile on 4, “If you think of the best way to spread a virus—bring 250,000 people from around the country, get them crowding together to watch a horse race ... and afterwards … go all round the country to spread it.”

Evidence for his assessment was provided by research results of a “COVID Symptom Study” by Professor Spector. In collaboration with an Austrian-based software company, Spector devised an app to track people with COVID-19 symptoms—downloaded by three million since March. Described by Spector as the largest citizen health project in the world, the data collected flagged up coronavirus hotspots around Cheltenham and Liverpool that coincided with the incubation period after the above events. Hospitals in the two areas also reported a surge in cases. In the last week of March, Liverpool and Cheltenham were among the areas with the highest number of suspected cases. The COVID-19 Symptom Study found an estimated 5–6 percent of the population, aged 20 to 69, having symptoms in those two regions.

Sporting events and other mass gatherings were allowed to continue over the next days. On March 14, European boxers met in London for an Olympic qualifier, while the following day the all-England badminton six-day event attended by 300 players ended in Birmingham. Some 25,000 fans from around the world watched the matches. Finally, despite protests from doctors, the popular band Stereophonics played before 15,000 music fans at Cardiff’s Motorpoint Arena March 14 and 15.

It was not until March 16 that large sporting events were banned in the UK, by which time community transmission was out of control. A full lockdown of the economy to contain and dampen the virus’s spread was not imposed until March 23—fully 12 days after the WHO declared a global pandemic.

These actions have led to Britain having the second highest COVID-19 fatality rate in the world. It also has the highest number of fatalities in Europe, at more than 63,000 according to aFinancial Timesestimate last week.

Other countries, such as South Korea and Norway, with low death rates, introduced lockdowns at a much earlier stage in the pandemic, resulting in tens of thousands of lives being saved.

What happened in Britain was not down to a mistake or incompetence on the part of the Johnson government, but the deliberate application of its pseudo-scientific “herd immunity” policy to tackle the virus. At a March 12 press conference Chief Scientific Advisor Sir Patrick Vallance declared, “Our aim is not to stop everyone getting it, you can’t do that. And it’s not desirable, because you want to get some immunity in the population.”

Scotinengland76 · 02/06/2020 10:30

@AdalindMeisner

And puppetmaster cummings is part of SAGE - consider that for a minute.
No he’s not. He attended the meetings to report back like every government Advisor has done in the past And will in the future.
chomalungma · 02/06/2020 10:31

I have seen the witch hunt and two lefties newspapers full of opinions and little facts

Bless - leftie newspapers....

strugglingwithdeciding · 02/06/2020 10:31

@chomalungma then you would realise that pandemic was run on a different type of virus , until we know a lot more about the virus none of us can say for sure what was right or wrong ,as we may have people more susceptible to it than others. Population density may be a big factors , such as age etc we are only recently learning that bame have higher risk , we will know more as we learn more only then can we be sure what measures worked , what should of been done sooner or maybe what shouldn't of been done

Pepperwort · 02/06/2020 10:32

Witchhunt? What do you think democracy is?

There have been loads of links with facts posted on here. Try reading some of them. Start with that BMJ editorial I linked and try the Lancet too.

Or are you one of those people that thinks all education is "leftist" and should therefore be ignored? In favour of what exactly? Do you believe that training and learning just doesn't have the same value as Johnson swinging his mop of hair around??

strugglingwithdeciding · 02/06/2020 10:33

@chomalungma even highly qualified scientists have different thoughts and opinions on things , yet so many in MN know all the facts and there opinion is a fact as far as they are concerned
We have still so much to learn

Kazzyhoward · 02/06/2020 10:33

Alsonwe were all terrified to 'overwhelm the NHS' which led to people literally dying in their homes ... Perhaps if the NHS wasn't such a sacred cow people would have felt they could demand treament earlier.

People WERE trying to get treatment etc earlier. It's difficult when the GP surgery, hospital depts just put on a recorded message saying if it's urgent phone 999 or otherwise call 111. That was the reality in the first few weeks. Whatever the NHS say to try to go down the "blame the patient" route, they WEREN'T open for patients except for emergencies.

My OH had his cancer treatment stopped - the radio silence from the oncology dept was a disgrace - phones calls just went to a call centre who promised someone would call back but they never did. He only managed to talk to someone there last week and all they've done is book him a blood test appot for July - with a "maybe treatment will start again" sometime over the Summer.

My MIL had a cancerous mole on her nose removed a couple of years ago. Another one has appeared close to it. GP won't refer to maxillofacial until they examine it, but refuse to examine it "due to covid". Despite the Maxillofacial consultant saying "just ring if you've any problems" at the last review appt, they won't see her without a referral from the GP.

The NHS really need to stop victim blaming and sort themselves out. They're the problem, not the patients!

Humphriescushion · 02/06/2020 10:34

I am happy to see the statistics agency just as bemused as many on the testing saga!

www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/correspondence/sir-david-norgrove-response-to-matt-hancock-regarding-the-governments-covid-19-testing-data/

chomalungma · 02/06/2020 10:35

hen you would realise that pandemic was run on a different type of virus

So we can't learn lessons from that exercise because it was a different virus Hmm

until we know a lot more about the virus none of us can say for sure what was right or wrong

We can ask about PPE, local planning, getting a track and trace set up, using local resources, co-ordination etc

All of which are applicable regardless of the kind of virus

Kazzyhoward · 02/06/2020 10:36

we are only recently learning that bame have higher risk

And no nearer to knowing why, i.e. is it nature or nurture?

strugglingwithdeciding · 02/06/2020 10:41

@Kazzyhoward no we don't know why yet lots of countries are looking into this and other factors and we may not know why for sometime yet as it's a new virus , we know less about it that what we do know about it still

Notejode · 02/06/2020 10:42

Pepperwort Education is one thing and brainwashing is another.

Soontobe60 · 02/06/2020 10:43

Op, have you actually read all the Sage papers, or just the news report?

Humphriescushion · 02/06/2020 10:45

Very polite! But says it all. Taken from above.

"I warmly welcome of course your support for the Code of Practice for Statistics. But the testing statistics still fall well short of its expectations. It is not surprising that given their inadequacy data on testing are so widely criticised and often mistrusted."

Notejode · 02/06/2020 10:47
  • even highly qualified scientists have different thoughts and opinions on things , yet so many in MN know all the facts and there opinion is a fact as far as they are concerned We have still so much to learn*

Hopefully they educate us all before the next elections. Lol

Astabarista · 02/06/2020 10:50

How can tell the truth about a man repeatedly sacked for lying and another man who believes in eugenics and has a history of being named as a bully in employment tribunals as a witch hunt is beyond me.

Astabarista · 02/06/2020 10:50

How can call telling the truth about a man repeatedly sacked for lying and another man who believes in eugenics and has a history of being named as a bully in employment tribunals as a witch hunt is beyond me.

NotAnotherUserNumber · 02/06/2020 10:59

I was feeling defensive on behalf of SAGE members in a previous thread (I work in a similar area and indirectly know people involved which SAGE and someone on the committee, so it feels sort of personal). Posters assured me that they were being critical of the government, not of SAGE, but perhaps now some of the SAGE papers have been released they’ll understand why it felt targeted at SAGE.

Unlike most people here, I have actually been fairly impressed with the government throughout this crisis. I had a low opinion of them before (partially because I am a strong remainer), but my opinion went up when I saw how from the start the cabinet stepped to one side to listen carefully to the SAGE advice, rather than base their decisions on their own opinions or feelings. This doesn’t mean they made all the right choices, but they were putting their egos aside and doing their best with the best possible info at the time.

ITonyah · 02/06/2020 11:02

Ppe was a problem, however China was playing down the severity of the virus at the same time as quietly buying up the majority of ppe, so not really the govts fault. Also some NHS trusts had plenty of PPE, their central distribution and logistics aren't the best she says tactfully

Notejode · 02/06/2020 11:07

Unlike most people here, I have actually been fairly impressed with the government throughout this crisis. I had a low opinion of them before (partially because I am a strong remainer), but my opinion went up when I saw how from the start the cabinet stepped to one side to listen carefully to the SAGE advice, rather than base their decisions on their own opinions or feelings. This doesn’t mean they made all the right choices, but they were putting their egos aside and doing their best with the best possible info at the time. This

Kazzyhoward · 02/06/2020 11:08

Ppe was a problem, however China was playing down the severity of the virus at the same time as quietly buying up the majority of ppe, so not really the govts fault. Also some NHS trusts had plenty of PPE, their central distribution and logistics aren't the best she says tactfully

Hadn't some central stores of PPE been allowed to go out of date? That's hardly Boris' fault is it? That's the fault of the NHS manager(s) who was tasked with proper stock rotation which should have done what was planned, i.e. release stock from the PPE store into general use and replace it with newly delivered stock to ensure it was used during it's shelf life - i.e. pretty simple basic stock control that even "low paid" supermarket shelf stackers can manage! Some NHS managers were incompetent in normal times and the Covid crisis has really highlighted how unsuited to their jobs they really are.

Kazzyhoward · 02/06/2020 11:10

Unlike most people here, I have actually been fairly impressed with the government throughout this crisis. I had a low opinion of them before (partially because I am a strong remainer), but my opinion went up when I saw how from the start the cabinet stepped to one side to listen carefully to the SAGE advice, rather than base their decisions on their own opinions or feelings. This doesn’t mean they made all the right choices, but they were putting their egos aside and doing their best with the best possible info at the time.

Me too. It's easy for all the armchair experts to criticise, but that's with the benefit of hindsight - any fool can do that.

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