The Government were telling the truth. They followed scientific advice all along.

[NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite]

www.thesun.co.uk/news/11757540/boris-advice-mistakes/

According to official papers released on Friday, Boris Johnson has been following the scientific advice all along. (Forgive me if I'm late to the party but I haven't seen anything about this until today).

It was SAGE who said we shouldn't lock down earlier.
It was SAGE who says Cheltenham and Stereophonics gigs should go ahead as they were low risk.
It was SAGE who said a travel ban would just postpone the epidemic by one month.
It was SAGE who, on February 18, wrongly advised "When there is sustained transmission in the UK, contact tracing will no longer be useful.”

Well done to Boris Johnson and the Govt for trusting in and following scientific advice (even though that advice turned out to be wrong).

Boris Johnson wasn't blindly taking own action after all. Even though SAGE got things wrong, it was right to follow their advice. It was and is a difficult situation but we need to give credit to BJ and co, where it is due.

The government's secret science group has a shocking lack of expertise. SAGE has no molecular virologists, immunologists or intensive care experts.

The success of any advisory group of scientists surely depends on a culture of openness, independence and diversity of opinion. Unfortunately this culture of openness has been conspicuous by its absence when it comes to the government’s Scientific Advisory Group on Emergencies.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/27/gaps-sage-scientific-body-scientists-medical

Did "the science" tell them to screw up PPE provision?

Coronavirus: Care homes 'face mass deaths' without PPE
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52215430

Coronavirus: UK failed to stockpile crucial PPE
www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-52440641

COVID-19: Could PPE shortages amount to corporate manslaughter?
www.legalcheek.com/lc-journal-posts/covid-19-could-ppe-shortages-amount-to-corporate-manslaughter/

Coronavirus: NHS whistleblowers ‘threatened with job loss’ for speaking out on PPE
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-uk-nhs-ppe-whistleblowers-job-losses-ppe-a9515856.html

I think the WHO is more to blame here than SAGE/Tories/Boris. If they hadn’t given such dodgy advice early on more countries may have taken measures to close down borders to minimise the spread. That’s the only thing that could have been done better really. Once there is consistent community transmission within a certain area there isn’t much to do but jet if burn through in a controlled manner.

This government does not know the meaning of the word truth, they are compulsive liars.

Did "the science" tell them to send vulnerable people back to work with out adequate legal/financial protection to allow them to wfh if safer?

UK's most vulnerable people at risk of losing 60% of their income
Citizens Advice warns of lack of safety net for many of the 2.5 million ordered to shield at home
www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/28/uks-most-vulnerable-people-risk-losing-60-per-cent-income

Employment law expert Simon Rice-Birchall, from Eversheds Sutherland, thinks it would be difficult for an employer to force people to return to an office if they have shown that they can do their job from home.

However, those who are told to go in will not be entitled to sick pay if they choose to stay at home because they are worried about contracting the virus, he says.

"Somebody that's vulnerable at home isn't sick," he says.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52567567

Coronavirus plan for returning to work puts employees at risk, says TUC
Exclusive: draft guidelines ‘vague, non-binding and can’t be supported in current form’
www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/04/uk-plan-for-returning-to-work-puts-peoples-health-at-risk-warns-tuc-coronavirus

Disabled people in UK threatened with sack unless they go back to work
www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/18/disabled-people-in-uk-threatened-with-sack-unless-they-go-back-to-work-coronavirus

If it's a johnson, call it a johnson, trying to justify this awful man and his pointless cabinet does no good and won't blind people to the reality that they left lots of people to suffer when they could just have brought in a universal basic income that would have supported everyone. Apologists for the tories is why we are in the mess we're in and have been for years.

A decent government would have looked at the countries that had similar diseases and asked for their advice and help on how to limit the spread before it took hold. But they didn't ....

Is "the science" responsible for running down the NHS for years so it was already stretched to its limits?

The NHS has barely survived under the Tories. Boris Johnson’s victory will be its death knell
www.euronews.com/2019/12/11/the-nhs-has-barely-survived-under-tories-boris-johnson-s-victory-death-death-knell-view

The King’s Fund health think tank has said: “While the new NHS funding deal will ease current pressures, it is not enough to simultaneously restore performance against key waiting times standards and transform services to deliver better care.”
When the 2020/21 budget for the Department of Health was announced, the Health Foundation said: “The 2.9% increase for the Department of Health and Social Care falls short of the absolute minimum of 3.3% needed to maintain care and start to address the growing NHS workforce crisis, and puts at risk the ambitions to improve the health service laid out in the NHS long term plan.”
fullfact.org/election-2019/nhs-spending-biggest-boost/

www.ox.ac.uk/research/why-cutting-spending-public-health-false-economy

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/boris-johnson-conservatives-nhs-funding

@EmperorCovidula, could you specify what part of the WHO's early advice you disliked and how you would have changed it in the context of what was known at the time?

Many of us could do the same for Johnson's actions.

Did "the science" tell Johnson to rewrite history in order to defend his crony Cummings?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/24/boris-johnson-defence-dominic-cummings-anger-from-allies-and-opponents-alike

Boris Johnson’s defence of Dominic Cummings provokes furious backlash
Attempt to justify 264-mile lockdown trip fails to silence calls for top aide’s resignation
www.ft.com/content/3e3569ca-01b4-40af-b291-747f482bbe9b

Boris Johnson has 'trashed' Government advice by defending Dominic Cummings, advisors say
www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/government-advisors-criticise-boris-johnson-dominic-cummings-a4449781.html

www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-cant-let-dominic-cummings-go/

A 'Domnishambles': Dominic Cummings holds on in Boris Johnson's office despite Cabinet losing faith and face
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/24/domnishambles-dominic-cummings-holds-boris-johnsons-office-despite/

From another thread, referencing this one:
“ There's another thread going on right now where the op is quoting from the Sun and backing 'Boris', like he's some sort of friendly uncle.
I'll give him this, he's done a real number on the thickos who read the Sun and other such crap.. And voted leave and Conservative in their droves..”

Ah, it’s like the good old days of 2016 all over again. Being called a thicko for having a different political view.

@LiveintheNow

They influenced that advice, Dominic Cummings took part in the SAGE meetings...

According to the minutes, Cummings has attended 6 of the 34 SAGE meetings to date. Only one of those meetings was before we went into lockdown. He started attending more regularly from 28th April, one month after lockdown began.

BBC report on furlough scheme:
“ Some 8.4 million workers are now covered by the government's furlough scheme, up from eight million a week earlier, the Treasury has said.

Claims for subsidies filed by employers rose to £15bn from £11.1bn, it added.

The scheme, brought in to mitigate the effects of coronavirus, allows employees to receive 80% of their monthly salary up to £2,500.”

And people say the government is doing nothing to help people!

How does the size of the UK’s fiscal response to coronavirus compare with other countries’?

*But despite the unprecedented size of the UK’s intervention, IMF estimates suggest that the response in other G7 economies has typically been larger. The bespoke coronavirus packages interact with the pre-existing benefit system in each country. Here, the UK stands out by offering a relatively low level of income support to employees without children who become unemployed. This is especially true compared with other European countries…
www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14845

The furlough scheme must be reformed to avoid mass unemployment
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/20/the-furlough-scheme-must-be-reformed-to-avoid-mass-unemployment

www.express.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/1262373/Martin-Lewis-latest-money-saving-expert-furlough-companies-paying-workers-update-today

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/04/23/six-big-problems-taxpayer-backed-furlough-scheme/

Interesting that we aren’t the only country subject to intense debate about easing lockdown.

“ Germany's calm and successful handling of the pandemic attracted international attention. But its next moves have been chaotic, characterised by squabbling between regional leaders which has culminated in a faster lifting of restrictions than Chancellor Angela Merkel would have liked.” (BBC news app)

@Pepperwort well the advice not to close borders in particular but in general the lackadaisical response was hardly what you’d expect from an organisation like that. You’d expect impartial advice erring on the side of caution and best practice rather than a slow response. If all countries had restricted travel from affected areas as soon as the disease was reported we wouldn’t be where we are.

The science' in the rest of the world was advising something totally different and looked on in total horror at what the UK was doing

For a start, the UK ignored repeated advice by the World Health Organisation to start testing.

But at least that helped our government keep the official number of deaths seemingly low -- by only including hospital patients with a Covid19 diagnosis, while thousands of others were dying untested.

YounghillKang thank you for posting all the links so any MNers that have missed them can read them.

Was responding to Togglethis commenting on my first post on the thread. However, since I now see that Togglethis's conception of making a case for the Johnson government consists of statements equivalent to 'my-neighbour's-cousin's-dog said' - combined with rather basic ad hominem attacks - I feel less inclined to entertain their concerns.

It's also rather amusing that Togglethis having dismissed another poster's comments as babyish now laments being cast as a 'thicko'. It seems that hypocrisy is not just a feature of the Johnson government but also its supporters!

There is no ‘scientific’ evidence - it is not one body, but lots of different studies. Models are models and have error bounds. I would think behavioural modelling would have large error bounds. The problem was not just timing of lockdown - it was the style of lockdown, other measures like choosing to put energy into building lots of nightingale hospitals but not make PPE and tests.

The problem was one of risk. Yes, we didn’t know what corona was like: but in that case, why not be CAUTIOUS like the other successful countries rather than minimising? Which is easier to do- lift unnecessarily harsh restrictions or impose further strict rules?

Even if we made early mistakes, why not Be more cautious now?

@YounghillKang Good job! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

I think this is very interesting OP. No fan of BJ here, but it disproves the theory that he was just doing what he wanted. The SAGE advice seems way off kilter. Not strong enough.

Matt Hancock, meanwhile, remains a twat.

It is the tories usual strategy of passing the buck and blaming/discrediting the experts. The more important question is who made the decisions behind the make up of sage e.g why over half of the 23 participantsare paid government employees, working as ministerial, health or civil service advisers which will obviously affect the ability of the committee to make decisions independent of poloital pressure.

It makes me so sad that so many people in England just blindly cite the tabloids with zero critical thought about why they are pushing a certain line.

'The group includes no molecular virologists who could explain detailed pathogenic differences between Covid-19 and influenza, not one intensive care expert or nursing leader, and no immunologist to examine whether this virus produces lasting and protective immunity. There are no social scientists who could work on community engagement, nor a logistician, who would have expertise in planning for the delivery of supplies and resources during a pandemic. A balanced scientific advisory group would at the minimum include experts working at the frontline of the pandemic, such as those in public health, primary care and intensive care.....

So at a moment when the UK had fewer than 10 deaths from Covid-19 and less than 500 confirmed cases of coronavirus, the government, informed by Sage, decided to stop all community testing and tracing. The public health community were perplexed. It is difficult to think of other severe viral epidemics managed in this way, apart from influenza, which differs from coronvirus in important ways.......

It’s impossible to tell whether things would have played out differently had Sage included people from public health and primary care backgrounds. But had its membership and details of its decisions been revealed earlier, there would have been a chance for the wider scientific community to offer constructive criticism, maybe in time to save thousands of lives.'

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/27/gaps-sage-scientific-body-scientists-medical

SAGE is serviced by a whole network of subgroups, which include most (probably all, haven't re-checked) of the roles mentioned above.

Is the real story that the whole system of specialist commuttees feeding the main committee inherently flawed?

Yes, the government was telling the truth. They also update the nation daily and is up to each citizen and organisations to follow their advise and apply common sense.