UK set to be the pariahs of Europe thanks to our government's mishandling of the crisis

[effingterrified]

www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/may/29/britain-left-off-safe-list-of-countries-free-to-holiday-in-greece

Britain left off 'safe list' of countries free to holiday in Greece

"The UK was not included on a list of 29 countries released by Athens on Friday deemed to fit an “epidemiological profile” that makes travel from them relatively safe."

Greece decided to ban British travellers on safety grounds even though "the UK is one of Greece’s biggest markets. Last year close to 4 million Britons travelled to Greece, with most heading to its extensive archipelago, which has remained remarkably Covid-free."

How depressing that our government's utter failure to manage the disease, giving the UK the highest death rates in Europe, means that we have now become the pariahs of Europe.

I thought Sweden held that particular crown

I thought it was Belgium- but neither of those suit the OP's ridiculous agenda.

As I haven't claimed that France, Spain or Italy responded perfectly, I'm not sure what your point is

Sorry, did I say you had? I was discussing a previous posters point about ‘reverse exceptionalism’. Sometimes when you post a thread on here people have separate discussions within that thread that aren’t 100% in relation to the OP, I thought you would have realised that by now.

IcedPurple - Greece clearly IS worried about the UK's exceptionally high death rates. They haven't banned our tourists and all the lovely cash they bring with them for fun

Greece haven't really 'banned' British (or Norwegian, Italian, Canadian, Chinese, French, Irish, Swedish...) tourists. They've left them off a small list of countries from which Greece will welcome tourists when it reopens on June 15th, to be reviewed on July 1st.

Given that there are few if any flights from Britain to Greece, all package holidays have been cancelled and that the FCO is warning against all non-essential travel, the Greeks aren't really depriving themselves of much 'lovely cash' from British tourists who wouldn't be travelling anyway.

If the Greeks include Brits in their 'approved' list after their next review, will Britain no longer be a 'pariah'? I ask since you seem to believe the term is defined by the ability to holiday in Mykonos or Corfu.

Effing
I've just looked at the worldometer and Belgium has the worst death rate, so according to your theory (ie that death rates are directly and only attributable to government failures)
that must be because Belgium has the worst government.
Have I understood you correctly?

IcedPurple - yes, Greece have banned travellers from the UK. If you read the article linked to in the OP, that is made quite clear.

Greece are desperate economically, for tourist cash.

The fact that they are still prepared to ban British tourists, even though we bring them more tourist cash than any other country, makes clear how risky they think British tourists are.

Our Government may be happy to lie to us about the risks we face and reduce lockdown in the face of scientific opposition - other countries who are not blinkered by our media lies are putting their money where their mouth is.

They would rather forego our cash than risk catching our disease.

The shame that even little Greece has handled this better than the UK!

Not like we'd hope to have managed our pandemic response better than Greece, that well-known economic superpower. hmm

Do you not think that might be part of the issue? London is a massive economic hub, as well as a transit point between Europe and the USA. Much more densely populated than Greece, with more people transiting through.

B1rdbra1n - no, Britain's death rates are the worst in Europe.

But in answer to your point, yes, clearly Belgium's government has also horrifically mismanaged its response to the disease.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8330791/Belgian-PM-shamed-outraged-medics-turn-backs-protest.html

I don't think that other countries have also mismanaged the crisis just not quite as badly as we have is such a great argument that our Government has handled everything just fine though.

You keep moving the goalposts, first it was Britain is uniquely the pariah of Europe, then when it was pointed out we are one of a group of countries currently (and that currently is important) not able to visit it was suddenly a discussion about how Greece had handled the crisis.

I don’t think our government have done a good job, I think Greece have absolutely made the right call here. A thread about how Greece, who have an ongoing economic problem for years, have done so well would be an interesting one. However yet another reverse exceptionalism one, especially one where the initial point is ill conceived, isn’t needed.

unchienandalusia - thanks for your helpful and well-argued comment.

What exactly are you doing in terms of lobbying the government about their response OP? Or are you just hoping they’ll read your threads on here?

BarkandCheese - do RTFT. I've already responded to the same point made above.

"I don't think 'other countries mishandled the pandemic too, just not quite as badly as the UK based on the death figures, is quite the killer argument you think it is."

Drivingdownthe101 - I'm not sure why you are so fixated on my lobbying the government, or what that has to do with the subject of the thread?

I’m not fixated at all, I’m just wondering if you are doing anything except writing threads on here?
Again, we are actually permitted within talk guidelines to deviate from the express point made in the OP, it happens a lot on Mumsnet.

*Greece are desperate economically, for tourist cash.

The fact that they are still prepared to ban British tourists, even though we bring them more tourist cash than any other country, makes clear how risky they think British tourists are*

You're sounding more and more like the drunk on the bus.

There are few if any flights from Britain to Greece.

The FCO has warned against all but essential travel.

Package holidays have been cancelled.

Many people are extremely nervous about travelling abroad.

In other words, there was never any chance of Brits flooding the beaches of Greece from June 15th. The Greeks aren't depriving themselves of any cash, because British tourists weren't going to be flying off to Rhodes in 2 weeks anyway. The list is set to be reviewed on July 1st, and if infection rates are down, Britain and the other 'banned' countries may well be included then.

If it is, what will you say?

BTW your comments about Greece are very patronising.

I don’t have faith in our government (or the opposition!) but I hesitate to call out their handling of the situation. Any decision taken would have been the wrong one as we don’t live the alternative and every death is 1 too many. It is too soon for any country to claim successful handling of this awful disease. People will suffer from years to come through mental health and poverty and we don’t know the long term effects or even if people are immune yet. Everyone says the Government don’t know what they are doing and they are right. No government does. It is all a gamble on scientific theories. I am not a scientist but do not think it is as straight forward as comparing death rates. How accurate is each countries reporting and how are they counting? I am not making excuses for the U.K. and not saying they handled it well so far but I’m also not going to praise other countries or draw comparisons. I hope those that have drastically reduced their infection and death rate now do enough to continue to support their citizens but only time will tell

From the Guardian live blog:

*Italy will not be treated like a leper colony, foreign minister Luigi Di Maio said on Saturday, as some European countries are looking to keep the door shut on visitors from places that have been badly impacted by coronavirus pandemic, Reuters reports.

European countries are cautiously reopening their borders next month as the coronavirus contagion subsides around the continent.

Italy is set to let tourists back in from June 15. While Di Maio promised a warm welcome to foreign tourists this summer, some EU states will keep their doors closed to visitors from countries with high coronavirus cases. Greece, for example, said on Friday it would open its frontiers to citizens from just 29 countries, excluding Italians, Spaniards and the British.

“We do not accept blacklists,” Di Maio wrote on Facebook, announcing a forthcoming round of bilateral meetings both in Rome and abroad to press Italy’s case. “If anyone thinks they can treat us like a leper colony, then they should know that we will not stand for it.”

Italy has the third highest death toll in the world from the new coronavirus, with some 33,229 people dying during the outbreak*

Is Italy the 'pariah of Europe' OP?

I'm not trying to argue that our government has handled things just fine.
What I'm saying is that the trajectory of the disease in each country has been affected by numerous factors and many of these are different for each country.
Lots of governments including ours have messed up big time, have we had a bad outcome because our government was among the worst or are there other factors (other factors in addition to government mismanagement) which which shaped the outcome in the UK?
For example,
population density
Location and concentration of zones of high transmission such as cities which are hubs
Percentages of the population who are vulnerable to disease
Prevalence or not of multi generational living

The best we can hope for is that governments will co-operate and pool knowledge so that we can all work out the best strategy going forward.
yes I know it seems like a long shot but any country that wants to be economically successful has to find a way to manage this problem

I dont think any country should let uk in!
Uk have chosen to maintain higher levels (economy/herd immunity) so it's citizens have to put up with this unfortunately.
The reason people arent badgering mps is because it always looks like BJ could make the right choice then he completely ignores advice.
Many uk areas dont even want uk tourists!

I have read the thread thank you, I always do because too many people make idiots of themselves by not doing so. I’m not arguing about death rates or who did what better, I’m just pointing out that your initial assertion, that Britain is the sole ‘pariah’ of Europe, was proved incorrect in the first post.

Ah well that’s where you’re going wrong Keepdistance, expecting Boris to do the right thing. I knew he was absolutely hopeless, that’s why I didn’t vote for him.

this is the thing which always amuses me. So many on MN seem to think that Europeans - and indeed people all over the world - have nothing better to do than point the finger at Britain. I think someone called it 'reverse exceptionalism'

It truly is bizarre Icedpurple. It's parochial and it is indicative of some quite impressive ignorance of what is going on elsewhere. I like 'reverse exceptionalism.' It nails many tediously repetitive threads....

The list is set to be reviewed on July 1st, and if infection rates are down, Britain and the other 'banned' countries may well be included then

Why on earth do you think our infection will fall?

UK has an R rate around 1, a daily infection rate of 8000 per day, so that isn't going to go down as we ease restrictions (it may even go up)
With 1% mortality,that's 80 unnecessary deaths per day on top of the hospital and care home deaths.

This infection rate will go into the autumn/winter, so not only will UK visitors not be wanted around the world this year but next year too.

We seem to have done the unique trick of fucking our economy and not having control over CV-19 either :(