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Covid

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Surely everyone who was going to die from corona will do eventually

257 replies

sunshineanddaffodils · 21/05/2020 08:39

Unless we all stay locked up at home forever or unless a vaccination or cure is discovered.

OP posts:
LemonPudding · 21/05/2020 12:31

@Barlet

The hysteria around some of this shows that people are unable to think rationally.

That sort of callous statement doesn't help your cause. Rationally, I don't want to get Covid and die. Neither do my (also shielded) sons. Do what you like but you cannot be allowed to jeopardise the health of others with your choices.

bellinisurge · 21/05/2020 12:32

"You're all going to die anyway " is probably the most callous bit of crap I've read on here for some time.

Cornettoninja · 21/05/2020 12:34

in fact you dont have the right to tell others what to do full stop

Is that directed at me specifically? Bit aggressive considering I haven’t even attempted to tell anyone what to do!

Lweji · 21/05/2020 12:42

There has never been such extreme prevention for any other disease.

Name another disease in the last 100 years that has clogged up ICUs in a matter of weeks in developed countries.

Boreasauraus · 21/05/2020 12:43

Do what you like but you cannot be allowed to jeopardise the health of others with your choices

The problem is how long are people willing to accept that they no longer have any choices - you are expecting people to accept detrimental impacts on their own personal and family well being be it through lack of normal health care, job losses, business closures and unfortunately at some point any altruism will start to wain with no end in sight.

Derbygerbil · 21/05/2020 12:47

@sunshineanddaffodils

If your hypothesis is true, it would help the NHS no end, as if someone is going to die anyway, there’s no point in seeking medical attention as it would be futile. We may as well let people pass away in their beds.

Derbygerbil · 21/05/2020 12:49

Fucking stupid OP. Are you in favour of any medical intervention then? Would you want any emergency services to attend if you were in a car accident? You're going to die eventually so why not just get it over with, don't waste the tax payers time and money funding all of these pointless antiobiotics, surgerical treatments, vaccines and whatever other life preserving measures you've sucked up already. These threads are getting stupider by the day

Indeed... We could close the NHS though. Think how much money we’d save if we just let everyone die! Imagine how much less tax we’d have to pay! Grin

Bartlet · 21/05/2020 12:53

@LemonPudding. It’s not being callous. It’s a neutral fact. If you feel threatened - real (in your case) or imaginary/exaggerated (in the heads of many of the Mumsnet Massive who’re scared to leave their houses) then you will want a situation that favours you and your children and won’t be caring much about other people. That’s human nature which is precisely we try not to let people who have a strong vested interest rule the outcome. Exactly why families of murdered children don’t get to pick which punishment is given to the perpetrator.

tartanbow · 21/05/2020 12:59

@Cornettoninja why would that of been at you specifically? Confused

I said it generally, no aggression here. I think the aggression is coming much more from those who are trying to police everyone elses every move, which is a loosing battle anyway no matter how bad others try to make them feel.

Cornettoninja · 21/05/2020 13:01

@tartanbow - it’s just the way I read it. Apologies Flowers

Forums are a bit of a minefield when everything is read by your internal voice!

LemonPudding · 21/05/2020 13:01

@Bartlet

And people unlikely to get very ill shouldn't be allowed a say either, then.

Iwillhavetea · 21/05/2020 13:02

I think some commonsense needs to come into place soon.

My eldest child is emotionally down. She's not seen anyone now since march. I'm not sending her back to school because her school is changing massively and it sounds like mission impossible right now. I think some things should open again. Like farm, zoos etc but with only outdoor access. Regular toilet cleaning. Limited people. Booking in advance etc.

We pay national trust £9 a month for access to a stately home near our house. We go so the kids can enjoy the huge play area and we all love the gardens. It's surrounded by fields. But they can't open up even to just members for now. Something about outdoor ticket venues. I just think being outdoors is good for everyone.

I think everything contradicts everything
Schools are reopening. But loads of change. Yet kids can't see cousins, aunties and friends. The keyworker kids have been together all this time but my daughter can't see her best friend who lives down the road and has been nowhere just like her.

So yes it's time to tell the vunerable to stay safe but let the healthy folk at least be allowed more socialising and outdoor activities.

GrumpyHoonMain · 21/05/2020 13:04

You realise right that diabetics and people with high blood pressure can have long and healthy life expectancies when properly controlled?

MarrowWang · 21/05/2020 13:07

I do think a large number of those who have died would die anyway, just maybe a few months later instead. When a vaccine is available, a lot of the deaths will end of course as those at highest risk will be protected (mind, as I understand, the MOST high risk people tend not to be able to get vaccines anyway? So a friend says with a child who has had a lot of operations and such anyway). I highly doubt we are going to vaccinate the entire country. If we are, that would pretty much stop any deaths in their tracks. If not, then a proportion of those 'not high risk' will still die from this anyway.

Given a vaccine seems so far off according to a whole lot of scientists (tw I know who work in this field say september is overly optomistic definitely, and suspect september is mentioned simply to calm people down, rather than as an actual likelihod) then yeah, a lot more will die. How it appears this works in a lot of cases is is..basically speeds up deaths, rather than causes them as such. Have read that most of those who have died would have died anyway bin the next year or whatever. that doesn't include healthy hospital staff and such woh appear to be getting their systems overdosed with the virus.

I suspect also (this originally came from a mate who works in the research part of the local hospital) that those who had a lot of deaths/infection on the first wave, will be less hit on the second, as it stands to reason that high rates already mean high raates of immune people also (and yes, the evidence does look like we have at least some kind of immunity after catching it).

in countries that acted early enough, track and trace and keeping on top of things will keep them 'safe'. I think thats too late for us personally tbh. Too many have it. Yet not quite enough have had it either.

This post was ful of waffle and prob didn't even answer the OP. Yeah, I think that most of those who have died would have died anyway, and if they didn't die 'of covid' now, they would possibly die 'of it' later.

Mind I dislike the way its made out to be dying 'because of' covid in all cases seemingly, rather than the more accurate..dying 'with' it. My aunt died a few weeks back, shes been ill for years and years and actually didn't show any symptoms at all of covid despite testing positive (yes I know many are asymptmatic though..but you would assume asymptomatic would also mean..not likely to die OF?) but her death has been put down to covid. I disagree, as do a few people who were treating her. she clearly did have it..as the test said so. But whats debateable is what killed her. If all deaths where someone tests positive are going down as covid deaths, then the numbers are even more wrong than they seem to be to start with! Huge huge difference between dying of something and dying with it. If we tested for stuff like flu (not comparing this to flu, before anyone starts) and a bunch of people died of cardiac arrest but tested positive for flu, would we say they died of flu?! I think many of those dying in ICU it can be reasoably established that they died 'of' covid, by the last hours of their lives..apparently its like drowning (which is why a lot of medics seem to think ventilators do more harm than good recently) but those like my aunt, who died due to a stroke, but was positive for the virus..I would not say she died of covid. But she is in the stats as doing so.

bellinisurge · 21/05/2020 13:09

"I do think a large number of those who have died would die anyway, just maybe a few months later instead. "
Jesus Christ. Listen to yourself.

Lweji · 21/05/2020 13:09

I do think a large number of those who have died would die anyway, just maybe a few months later instead.

Based on?

Gut feeling?

MarrowWang · 21/05/2020 13:10

Mind, could have saved all that waffle and just went with what others have out so well instead tbh. Yes, the only thing guaranteed in life is death tbh. Really should have just out that!

IncrediblySadToo · 21/05/2020 13:13

@Bartlet

This is not a serious pandemic. % of people dying is incredibly low. Imagine if it had been a more serious one with a much higher death rate?

Your posts really show how little you understand about this Pandemic

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt. — ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

Bartlet · 21/05/2020 13:15

@LemonPudding. No what that means is that we need to put some framework around it so that it can be obsessed objectively. Governments worldwide and the NHS already do this with the NICE/ QALY assessments for new drug treatments/ protocols (I shudder to think how much each saved year of life is costing us overall) . You may think that any amount of money is a valid price to pay for a single human life. Thankfully you’re not in charge.

MarrowWang · 21/05/2020 13:16

Jesus Christ. Listen to yourself.

I forgot how unable to have an opinion thats differing from the MN narrative in here Grin Worse than AIBU. I do listen to myself thanks. Also to others. Possible I have been led up the garden path by those who I tend to defer to on sciency things (ie friends who work in science!) but..nothing I can do about it anyway either way so..

Based on?

Mainly the fact that a huge majority of the deaths have been very very ill people, or very elderly people, or both. Though in all honesty, I didn't see it that way until it was mentioned by someone else. Obviously its unlikely that healthy young hospital staff would have died anytime soon without covid. But people like my aunt? For sure. Its not nice to speak about death in such a way, I know.

bellinisurge · 21/05/2020 13:18

Your vile opinion about cannon fodder is based on your feelings. I also have friends in scientific roles. And they aren't fucking heartless.

Lweji · 21/05/2020 13:18

but those like my aunt, who died due to a stroke, but was positive for the virus

Recent research has highlighted that the virus causes blood clots and (surprise) strokes and heart attacks too.

Many people don't seem to be struggling to breathe but have very low blood oxygen levels.

The virus is causing a lot more damage in people than lung problems.

Example:
scitechdaily.com/how-covid-19-kills-new-study-explains-the-mechanisms-of-the-new-coronavirus/

Bartlet · 21/05/2020 13:21

@IncrediblySadToo. You’re incorrect but keep on with the emotional responses.

.The % death rate on this one is very low against other pandemics in the past. Bubonic plague had a death rate untreated of 50%-70%. This one is looking like around or less than 1% and mainly (I didn’t say only) affects people with a limited life expectancy only (e.g that 1% is not evenly spread across age groups). This in the grand scheme of pandemics a very mild one.

MarrowWang · 21/05/2020 13:21

Also on the 'would have died anyway' thing..

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

Nearly 10% of people aged over 80 will die in the next year, Prof Sir David Spiegelhalter at the University of Cambridge points out, and the risk of them dying if infected with coronavirus is almost exactly the same.

That does not mean there will be no extra deaths - but, Sir David says, there will be "a substantial overlap".

"Many people who die of Covid [the disease caused by coronavirus] would have died anyway within a short period," he says.

Knowing exactly how many is impossible to tell at this stage.

Prof Neil Ferguson, the lead modeller at Imperial College London, has suggested it could be up to two-thirds.

Remember a fair few professonals saying things like that over the months also..and does make a lot of sense really.

tartanbow · 21/05/2020 13:22

this debate is never going to be done with. you are always going to have those who favour getting on with it and then those who feel they need to stay in. my uncle who is a healthy man in his 30s has said if he was able to he would take the rest of this year off work and keep himself and his 3 sons (who are all under 10) in the house for the foreseeable. they dont have a garden, just a tiny balcony space. I actually think this is hideously cruel and is certainly based on his own illogical fear. I dont think we should all be down the pub or anything but there has got to be a middle ground.

come July/august it wont matter anyway. people will eventually start risk assessing for themselves anyway. in fact, a lot already are. I think that is exactly what the government wanted when they changed the stay at home message. it's a little nudge in the right direction