Surely everyone who was going to die from corona will do eventually

[sunshineanddaffodils]

Unless we all stay locked up at home forever or unless a vaccination or cure is discovered.

I’m not waiting for it to magically go away - it’s simplistic to say that.

I’m waiting for a decent and well proven test, track and trace to be In place. And for the infection right to be lower - as low as it was in other countries when they eased lockdown.

Exactly mumoftwo
Also do people not realise that you can’t just say cancer treatment is more important let’s divert our money back to that. The problem is a lot of cancer treatments can’t be carried out if Coronavirus is rife in the community as the cancer treatments make them so vulnerable to Coronavirus. Hence another reason it should be under control using test and trace. So that it is actually possible to restart these treatments

For example at what point will we accept the massive advances in treating cancer are in jeopardy

Alot of people will die from cancer due to this. The detection rate has gone down from somthing like 30k a week to 10k. Early detection means better survival. Then you've got ops cancelled, treatment cancelled.

I can't understand why they didn't designate some hopistals and transport to those that needed it just to cancer and then told those under going treatment or isolate completly.

The cancer deaths will be harder to quantify and over a longer period of time though, so easier to ignore by the gov.

I think these things should be explained more clearly in the media. So that the average nonvulnerable person realised there is actually something in the lockdown for them. So that if they get diagnosed with a condition tomorrow. There will be a functioning health system to treat them.

Any illness that causes a premature death Is tragic but we accept it. Corona is surely no different. All we can do is try to minimise our chances of catching it just as we do with other illnesses (or doing sensible things to keep us safe day to day eg. Seat belts). Unless a vaccination or treatment is discovered that’s just how it is.

There are a number of things that lockdown is trying to achieve:-

1. Saving the lives of those who will die without treatment but live with it - they need a hospital bed available so we don’t want too many to have it at the same time
2. Doctors are getting better at treating it as they see more and more cases and realise things that work and things that don’t
3. Scientists are working on discovering treatments (my brother is one of these scientists )
4. Some people are currently vulnerable but won’t be in six months (for example I have a friend undergoing cancer treatment)
5. We may get a vaccine

The problem is a lot of cancer treatments can’t be carried out if Coronavirus is rife in the community as the cancer treatments make them so vulnerable to Coronavirus

Strongly agree

I have cancer, my treatment is mercifully unaffected. But sims people simply cannot embark on other treatment paths because if it still too risky because if the level of circulation of COVID

Pretty similar for many pauses services. Last thing anyone wants is ‘my loved one went in for a routine op, caught COVID in the hospital and died’

It’s already happened a few times, and it’s horrible

Track and trace doesn’t guarantee that you won’t catch it though.

@Blueberryham Yes. I very much agree. One of my friends isn’t getting cancer treatment because it puts her at more risk and she understands this. My other friend is getting her treatment because her cancer is incredibly advanced and fatal it’s been judged that she’s more at risk by not getting treatment.

It’s like MRSA though. Thousands catch that when undergoing routine hospital treatment.

The second friend’s treatment was stopped for the first few weeks of lockdown but restarted after doctors weighed up the risk to her.

plenty of nurses/doctors/hospital porters, taken too soon

The death rate of NHS staff is the same as the general population. They are at no more risk than anyone else.

Care home staff are 3x as likely to die. Bus drivers also have a massively increased risk.

Like pp said, the difference is we have not had to choose who gets an itu bed and medical care and who doesn’t. That’s the difference. Although i do have my suspicions that the saintly NHS has been dumping those it deems untreatable on care homes and private hospitals to keep beds free for those who are more likely to benefit. While commissioning all PPE supplies so those care homes and other facilities have none...

Track and trace doesn’t guarantee that you won’t catch it though

No-one says it goes at an individual level

On a population basis it saves a vast number of cases (and therefore both disruption and of course deaths - and life changing complications. which are less mentioned but also real)

According to that logic we could also stop prosecuting people for murder and manslaughter because their victims would have died anyway.

Sunshine, I don’t understand your point. We know that if Coronavirus was to run through the community then lots of the vulnerable people would very likely die. Is your point that we should release lockdown and just get it over with? I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. I personally think we aren’t finished with lockdown yet. We need to get numbers lower. The install robust testing. Then hopefully everyone won’t have to get it before a vaccine or treatment is available.

‘ that the saintly NHS has been dumping those it deems untreatable on care homes and private hospitals to keep beds free’

In terms of private hospitals, it’s been the other way round here. They’ve deep cleaned them, put big infection prevention measures into force for premises and staff, and sent cancer operations there.

Is your point that we should release lockdown and just get it over with?

Lord Farquad strikes again?

Kinda amazed by people who basically say my right to not be locked down is so great that others, who are more vulnerable, should be even more Tightly locked down For way longer. Or my right to do what I want is so great, others should die needlessly or far earlier than normal.

It's not just the right to go out though is it. You talk about it like people are peeved they can't go for a pint or watch the footy.

People are losing their businesses their livleyhoods. Women and children are trapped with abusive men. Children arnt getting an education, many are now not getting any nutritious food. Disabled people are no longer able to attend therepy sessions or enrichment activities and their carers are getting no respite.

Not wanting lockdown is not as simple for some people as not being able to go out for a couple of glasses of wine with the girls on a Friday.

Track and trace doesn’t guarantee that you won’t catch it though.

No - but it reduces the risk, because it takes people who are infectious out of circulation earlier, so you are less likely to meet one.

Wearing a seatbelt doesn’t guarantee you will survive a bad car crash - but it increases the probability. Ditto crash helmets, healthy diet, exercise, moderate drinking etc. You can still get the nasty disease, but are less likely to.

It’s all about statistics and probability. You will either get Corona, or you won’t. If you get it, you will either die, or you won’t. Some actions increase the probability of both of those, some decrease them.

We really should start prosecuting people who break lockdown with murder.

If you don't care about people who will die of Covid19, why do you care about people who will die of poverty instead? Because you feel immune to the 1st but the 2nd might affect you?

@sunshineanddaffodils I’m guessing you possibly haven’t lost anyone to covid19?

My dad has it. His life is in the balance just now, it’s highly likely he’ll move to end of life care in the next couple of days.

Sometimes it’s not what you say it’s how you say it.....I’m generally very hard to offend, but the glib way you’ve worded this is pretty hard to take.

Surely everyone who was going to die from corona will do eventually, unless we all stay locked up at home forever or unless a vaccination or cure is discovered.

No. Just no. It's not a question of medical care merely prolonging your life, but your basic - perhaps genetic - vulnerability remains and if it doesn't get you this time, it'll get you the next.

Let's allow that some people truly are more vulnerable, not just because of age or underlying disease but by virtue of their genetic makeup; research is beginning to support that.

So, such a person catches Covid-19, it gets bad enough that they go to hospital. Because we've instituted lockdown, the NHS is not overwhelmed and they're put on a ventilator and survive. In your scenario, OP, they go home but it's just a matter of time before they get it again & die.

But a) they'll have antibodies & therefore a good measure of immunity to catching it again, and b) even if that immunity wears off, they might go to hospital again and the same ventilator, and dedicated care, might save them again.

So, far from it being a unique disease that is unjustifiably displacing other sufferers, it's just another infectious disease, worse than flu, not as bad as ebola, that people can survive and have every right to expect hospital treatment to enable them to survive. Just like cancer.

When the pandemic subsides (not if, because even the most grossly incompetent management of the crisis would eventually lead to herd immunity, though with a huge death toll) coronavirus will simply take its place in the roll-call of infectious diseases that require isolation and treatment.

We really should start prosecuting people who break lockdown with murder

There’s an interesting legal thread on twitter, might be secret barrister? Sorry can’t remember.

Anyway they are discussing the case of the tube worker who was spat by a customer with CV, and subsequently died from CV-19.

Goes into the legalities of why you can/can’t charge with att. Murder. Very interesting.

@Blueberryham no the shielding or vulnerable should remain in lockdown.