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Worried About Coronavirus- thread 39

605 replies

CrunchyCarrot · 05/05/2020 21:36

New thread!

OP posts:
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17
Newjez · 07/05/2020 06:31

They often use UV to clean swimming pools.
It's not exactly rocket science.

RedToothBrush · 07/05/2020 08:31

From yesterday

Lewis Goodall @lewis_goodall
SICK PAY AND CARE HOMES

Spent the last two days talking to carers about one specific issue.

I've heard it a lot in the last 2 months and it's still a problem.

It's sick pay- or a lack of it.

I've spoken to carers who say they're afraid to have tests because of it.

First of all, the reminders

Carers are some of the worst paid people in the country

They are largely on the minimum wage or something close to it

They're classed as "unskilled" (their work is anything but)

Up to 50% in some parts of the country are on zero hour contracts

Most don't have any form of company sick pay and rely on SSR (£95.85 a week) if they get sick

Some are not entitled to that if they don't do enough hours

Talk to carers and they'll all tell you the same thing- they usually don't take time off. They can't afford to.

Nor, usually, are they encouraged to do so by their bosses. This has been a problem before, with, for example, norovirus. As one put it to me "we just grin and bear it"

You can see why that is a problem at the best of times. It's an enormous problem with Covid-19.

One carer told me: "Unfortunately people are going into work with symptoms and this has been recognised by our company as well...[it's]because they are not getting any kind of decent sick pay...so they are just not being tested."

Another carer told me of an incident where a carer tested positive but she came to work anyway. When she was confronted by staff, she replied she had to come to work because she couldn't afford not to.

She was sent home. But it gives an indication of how desperate situ can be.

In a recent GMB survey of 2000 carers, 12% said that if they developed covid-19 symptoms they would have to come to work because they couldn't afford to live on SSR.

That doesn't sound like many, until you realise there are 840,000 front line carers.

If even a small percentage of those carers are forced to come to work for financial reasons, imagine the avoidable transmission which might take place.

And before any of you attack the carers, they hate being put in this position.

As one carer put it to me: "I work with a girl with two children on her own and if she showed symptoms she doesn’t live near family so she would have to choose either to stay at home isolating...

..."with no pay whatsoever, not be able to pay her rent, h food for her children, have to rely on food banks or she could choose to come in, hide her symptom and carry on working so her children have got food and then risk killing somebody whose job it is for her..."

"...to look after…. It is the opposite of … it makes people who are going to work to care for the people be a risk to the people they are caring for and it makes us be the people who are putting them in danger is what none of us really go in there for."

It's not just the safety of residents at risk. I'm told of carers who should be shielding because they have conditions of their own but are going to work because they can't afford not to do so.

Lots of care companies make a lot of money. Clearly they could afford to pay proper sick pay. But remember the care sector is dominated by small providers, many of which rely on local authority residents. There is so little money to be made there and margins are tight.

A care home manager in Yorkshire told us: "most of our work is delivered by councils who don’t fund us sufficiently well enough to deliver the services. I would like to be able to pay staff their full salaries when they off ill but it just isn’t possible..."

"If I did that for those who are off shielding or self isolating now it would cost me around £9,000 for the last five weeks, that is just half pay. If it was full pay about £18,000 which would really wipe out any surplus that we have and therefore we would be running at a loss."

Local authorities are themselves suffering a funding crisis, they can't afford to pay homes any more. And private revenue is drying up. Few are likely to put their relatives in homes at the moment.

The government did extend SSR eligibility and has promised to cover the cost for employers, the SSP rebate scheme.

However, I checked with the DWP tonight- it's still not operational.

What carers really want is for govt to guarantee their earnings for when they're sick, as a stop gap until there can be wider reform in the sector.

Given the amount of money the govt is spending on furloughing at the moment and given how little carers earn, it'd be peanuts.

A DWP spokesperson said: We’ve made sick pay more generous by starting it from day one, while at the same time stepping in to refund employers with up to 250 staff the cost of up to 2 weeks sick pay. Employers can, and many do, pay more than the statutory rate... "

"...something we encourage.

“And for those workers who need further financial support they may be eligible for Universal Credit, including help with rent, may benefit from a mortgage holiday or be entitled to help with council tax bills.”

The situation in care homes is complex and this is only one element. But a govt official said the other day they want to better understand why the situation in care homes is so bad. This is part of why and is something which could be remedied quickly.

For my full report on this, do watch @BBCNewsnight tonight. BBC2, 10.45pm

RedToothBrush · 07/05/2020 08:43

Also yesterday's briefing pointed out that hospitalisations in London were now lower than the North West. If you think about that in terms of per head of population that's a real worry when there is talk of relaxing lockdown.

The past few days around here have been awful with outsiders coming for a day out and having no consideration for social distancing. The local police have been trying to warn offenders and have issued fines. But I've seen neither of them every time I've been out. Local residents have been very concerned by it (lots of pensioners).

I've got to be honest with all the dickheads about I'm reconsidering where we walk today and DH has declared the weekend 'one where we stay home' as its likely to attract so many idiots.

bluefoxmug · 07/05/2020 08:50

what this crisis also shows is that schools are not (able to) providing the most basic of provisions.

adequate toilets & hand washing facilities.
clean rooms in well maintained buildings.
I would also say inadequate instructions by teaching staff to encourage hand washing.

plus possibly inadequate sick leave/sick pay policies that force staff to work if they really should better recover at home.

Hippywannabe · 07/05/2020 09:42

Inadequate instructions by teaching staff to encourage handwashing?
As a TA who spent the last 2 weeks constantly reminding children to wash their hands, demonstrating how to do it, singing 20 seconds long songs, that's a bit insulting.
What it did show was how many children clearly had no idea how to perform the simple step of basic hygeine which should surely have been taught at home.
As to the poor people who are having to work when they have symptoms because they are afraid of losing pay, that is awful.
These 'worried' threads have been so good to be on or lurk on, thanks to whoever started them.

Keepdistance · 07/05/2020 09:43

Yes was saying to dp about how people were saying they would go to work with symptoms because of not getting sick pay. If you think of a family. 14d for2 workers thats 50% down even with 2 people. Ad then imagine you have sickly kids. Mine have basically coughed since feb...we would have been stuck not working for 28d. So 50% of the time.
How much afe the tests? Surely company's should pay.
Also antibody tests would help as less likely covid if people are already immune. Which must be 80% of nurses and care staff..
Lets get those going before schools go back. I mean some shielding teachers and pupils and vulnerable are likely already immune especially in london.

Keepdistance · 07/05/2020 09:56

Kids dont want to spend 20s hand washing though. Many toddlers and even school age kids wait too long to go to the toilet and wet themselves.
Lets design some taps that run for the 20s.
Also who stands washing hands for 20s when someone is stood behind waiting for the taps?
50% of grown men dont wash their hands.
Anyway imo hand washing is rather the distraction. As due to success of contact tracing in other countries surely its much more likely people are just too close together?? Orherwise there would be loads of people popping up who had never seen the subject person.
I think on a bus study the people on the bus caught it from the person but 1 wasnt on the bus at the same time. Being an enclosed building though had it stsyed in the air or on a surface?
Handwashing is not going to help that much with kids who cough and sneeze and pick noses.
Eg our whole family caught something on lockdown. Both me and dp at once despite pretty extreme measures. I think it's likely we got it from food delivery person. - outside at least 1m away.
Anyway my conclusion from it is as we did clean and quarantine groceries nothing short of masks or contactless delivery would have helped. In fact dp is convinced we were far enough away so thinks dd2 was the source (except she got ill again).

RedToothBrush · 07/05/2020 10:07

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52569364
Coronavirus PPE: Gowns ordered from Turkey fail to meet safety standards

changeshermind · 07/05/2020 11:01

Not sure I would send dc to school of they open

bluefoxmug · 07/05/2020 13:36

mobile.twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/1258372975004389379

HERE IS THE PRESS RELEASE FOR OUR PAPER.

This is the largest study to date, analysing NHS health data from 17.4 MILLION UK adults between 1 Feb and 25th April 2020.

It gives the strongest evidence to date on risk factors associated with COVID-19 death.

HERE IS THE PRESS RELEASE FOR OUR PAPER.

This is the largest study to date, analysing NHS health data from 17.4 MILLION UK adults between 1 Feb and 25th April 2020.

It gives the strongest evidence to date on risk factors associated with COVID-19 death.

^opensafely.org/press-releases/2020/05/covid-risk-factors/^

bluefoxmug · 07/05/2020 13:37

clicky link of the above press release

LilacTree1 · 07/05/2020 16:03

I wondered what Ben G was thinking about this

Meanwhile, ambulance workers have fun

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8296585/Ambulance-workers-blasted-TikTok-coffin-dance-coronavirus-patient.html

ToffeeYoghurt · 07/05/2020 19:53

The treatment of our precious carers is appalling.

What I don't get is, particularly with talk of the money drying up. How come the owners (not the managers) are multi millionaires? Yet they struggle to pay their carers a living wage or proper sick pay?

Let's hope they (finally) add diabetes to the shielding list. Or at least if it's uncontrolled. It's been known from the start it was one of the highest risk factors. I think severe asthma is already on the list?

Not sure how we can better protect the BAME community? Is it feasible to shield all of them? I know many work in frontline roles. Perhaps they could temporarily transfer with frontline staff from quieter less Covid affected areas?

I expect that's too complicated?
The bare minimum we could do is ensure all frontline workers have proper PPE.

The latest cockup. The gowns from Turkey. Could we not have killed two birds with one stone two months ago? Made our own. Which would provide employment to those who are in precarious financial circumstances.

ToffeeYoghurt · 07/05/2020 20:06

Personally I wouldn't get worked up about that tik tok thing. It's not a real patient.
I can only imagine the immense stress paramedics are under. It's traumatising to be doing what they're doing everyday. And they're at increased risk from being frontline and therefore exposed to high viral loads.

It's a relatively harmless thing that helped these particular HCP deal with the awful everyday reality.

There's been increasing evidence Covid-19 is an inflammatory disease. It seems to attack various parts of the body - including but not exclusively the heart and lungs - causing inflammation.

It explains why immunosuppressants are being trialled. Presumably they might help with severe inflammatory responses.

HeIenaDove · 07/05/2020 20:34

inews.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-latest-covid-19-epidemic-care-homes-thousands-dead-warnings-2845247

Coronavirus latest: Week by week, how the Covid-19 epidemic in care homes left thousands dead — despite warnings in January
Boris Johnson has told Parliament he 'bitterly regrets' the death toll in care homes

An epidemic of Covid-19 has been allowed to flourish in care homes despite warnings as far back as January that the sector was particularly vulnerable to the disease

The Government’s own data has revealed that there were no care home deaths attributed to coronavirus when the UK went into lockdown at the end of March, yet a failure to introduce widespread testing and PPE for staff and residents, as well as an official order allowing Covid-positive patients to be discharged from hospitals into care homes, appears to have contributed to the deaths of thousands of vulnerable elderly people by the end of April

Figures show that the peak of deaths in care homes came two weeks after the peak in hospitals in the middle of April, suggesting there were missed opportunities to protect residents and staff at the end of March when the lockdown was implemented.

On Tuesday, the Government issued figures showing the steep rise in care home deaths in April. In the week ending 17 April, 3,390 people died from Covid in care homes, rising to 5,890 for following week

Boris Johnson told Parliament that he “bitterly regrets” the “epidemic” of coronavirus in care homes, while Health Secretary Matt Hancock said the Government had “worked very hard to protect people in care homes” “from the start”.

But ministers were given repeated warnings that the care sector was vulnerable, including by the Government’s own emergency group of advisers, more than three months ago.

The scientific advisory group on emergencies (Sage) began meeting to discuss coronavirus on 22 January, and the issue of care homes being vulnerable was “flagged” “very early on”, according to a briefing chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance gave last week.

Yet on 25 February Public Health England issued advice saying it “remains very unlikely that people receiving care in a care home or the community will become infected” with coronavirus

On 3 March, the Government’s own coronavirus action plan said that “health and social care services will work together to support early discharge from hospital”.

Call for a ban on visitors
On 12 March, former Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt, now chairman of the health select committee, called for a nationwide ban on external visits to care homes, which was not introduced until the nationwide lockdown 11 days later.

On the same day, the Government switched focus from testing in the community to hospitals, while only sample testing was carried out in some care home settings.

In the middle of March, the NHS issued an order to transfer 15,000 patients from hospitals back to the community, including care homes, to free up space and allow the NHS to operate within capacity - one of the key planks of the government’s coronavirus strategy.

On 25 March, in response to a question from the Labour MP Peter Kyle, the PM said care home testing would be rolled out “as soon as we possibly can” while PPE would be delivered “by the end of this week”

Significantly, on 2 April, the Department for Health issued a guidance note saying that for patients being discharged from hospital, “negative tests are not required prior to transfers/admissions into the care home”.

On 5 April, i asked Jenny Harries, England’s deputy chief medical officer, when blanket testing would be introduced in care homes. Dr Harries would say only that there was sample testing of up to five people per care home setting.

On 15 April, it was announced that care home residents and staff could be tested if they had symptoms. This was not extended to all residents and staff, regardless or not whether they had symptoms, until 28 April.

At PMQs, Mr Johnson claimed that care home deaths were now coming down, but the government was unable to provide figures showing the death rate had slowed.

This week the Department of Health said while patients who had tested positive for coronavirus would continue to be discharged into care homes, they would now be notified so they could take action

'Unfolding tragedy'
Shadow Care Minister Liz Kendall said: “The Prime Minister says he ‘bitterly regrets’ the crisis in care homes, but the warning signs of this unfolding tragedy have been there for many weeks.

“Boris Johnson was warned about the lack of testing and PPE at the last PMQs he did, six weeks ago.”

Nuffield Trust chief executive Nigel Edwards said: “Serious questions should be asked about the timing and effectiveness of Government’s social care response.

The government was reportedly warned in January that the social care sector was at particular risk from the effects of this virus. This reality, coupled with structural, funding and staffing problems significantly pre-dating Covid-19, have created the tragedy we see today in care homes

BBCONEANDTWO · 07/05/2020 20:46

@RedToothBrush thank you for that. It's so awful what our carers (who are classed as 'unskilled' (what a load of crap`) have to do this. I can totally understand why they still go into work and 'hide' their symptoms (just like animals who are injured in the wild do).

It's a disgrace that they are underpaid, overworked and under-appreciated.

My gran had carers who had to buy their own uniforms and pay their own travel (plus the time for travel - they weren't bloody paid).

What a disgrace. Perhaps it's time for carers to be put back into the NHS system where they have proper terms and conditions. Terms and conditions for the NHS are above and beyond - and in order to 'mainstream' carers they could reduce NHS sick leave to say 3 months full pay 3 months half pay instead of 6 and 6.

Just a thought.

Keepdistance · 07/05/2020 20:51

I understand why they needed to move them out. But surely some sort of hotel system?
With different carers to the normal ones.
My great aunt in a care home apparently has CV. Unluckily for her she deteriorated around jan and ended up in hospital. Released to care home. Then this.

It has all hinged on a few things
Ppe
Testing
And both it is hard to see why - were they unable to buy or chose not to spend the money?
It seems MH isnt very good but also it is a lot of stuff going on. All this and daily figures etc.
If this is going to last a year they need to sort out these fundamental things. Get sites here making the ppe. And the tests.

Lets get all nhs staff antibody tested. It might save having to do inaccurate swabs and them isolating.
Same with teachers.

ajandjjmum · 07/05/2020 21:14

My gran had carers who had to buy their own uniforms and pay their own travel (plus the time for travel - they weren't bloody paid).

Crazy that they had to pay for their uniforms, but the majority of us have to pay for travel to and from work, and do so in our own time.

So many carers are having to work in an atmosphere of total fear - they don't know how to care for their elderly patients - they're carers not nurses, who have medical training. Really feel for them.

changeshermind · 07/05/2020 21:55

I try to get anti inflammatories and always told no, if you can't breathe just to to A and E. They are strong tablets to have lying around. A universal problem with government health care.

MollyButton · 07/05/2020 21:57

My gran had carers who had to buy their own uniforms and pay their own travel (plus the time for travel - they weren't bloody paid).

I think you missed the point here, the poster wasn't talking about travel to a Care home, but carers in the community who have to pay their petrol between visits and only get paid for the time they spend in clients homes, not the travel between home.

On the other hand I work in a job where I normally travel around a lot, and I start to be paid as soon as I leave the house, and get a good rate for mileage.

ToffeeYoghurt · 07/05/2020 22:25

I really can't understand how there's so little money for care that carers are disgracefully having to buy their own uniforms, on very low minimum wages, etc. Yet at the same time we have millionaire care home owners. Something's gone very wrong with the financial distribution.

RedToothBrush · 07/05/2020 23:08

Lockdown until June reports the Times.

Only modest relaxation during May.

Ministers being warned already that the daily rate of infections is still close to 20,000. Which is far higher than was previously acknowledged. Official figures of new cases stand at 5,600. That makes track and trace extremely difficult at this point. The infection rate is also still dangerously close to R1 at R0.9 in some places.

The Guardian is talking about the mixed messages coming from government with many people taking rumours of easing restrictions next week as reason to abandon lockdown now. Johnson is also reported to have been 'uncomfortable' about what the rumours have been saying.

They also talk of how ministers were warned in 2017 of the risks to care homes.

Both newspapers are a significant change of tone to previous reports.

Worried About Coronavirus- thread 39
Worried About Coronavirus- thread 39
HeIenaDove · 07/05/2020 23:29

Red yes i saw that screenshot on Twitter. Appalling............no thats not strong enough...............Horrific Cant think of a word strong enough.

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