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"lips must turn blue before an ambulance will come out"

213 replies

lljkk · 26/04/2020 09:09

I've heard that claim a few times, about probable cv19 cases not being allowed to go to hospital.

Is it true or just hyperbole? I think it might be a gross exaggeration. Does anyone have a link to a real named person or even an NHS staff person saying this has happened?

I'm happy to see a SAD face in tabloids where someone is willing to not anonymously say it happened to themself or their loved one or their patient. I can't even find a tabloid story like that, though.

OP posts:
crazydiamond222 · 26/04/2020 12:08

The NICE guidelines on hospital admittance are here and state:
www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng165/chapter/3-Diagnosis-and-assessment

'3.4Use the following symptoms and signs to help identify patients with more severe illness to help make decisions about hospital admission:

severe shortness of breath at rest or difficulty breathing

coughing up blood

blue lips or face

feeling cold and clammy with pale or mottled skin

collapse or fainting (syncope)

new confusion

becoming difficult to rouse

little or no urine output.

I would rscommend everyone to purchase an oximeter to monitor health. Becuase of the way covid-19 attacks the lungs oxygen levels can drop to dangerously low levels before people realise. Every treatment with oxygen as our PM received leads to much better outcomes.
See for example
www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

MollyButton · 26/04/2020 12:08

It may have happened.
BUT what has definitely happened is that more and more paramedics are only being called when it is too late. One paramedic talked about seeing 1 person who had already died by the time they arrived in a week before, now he has seen 5 in one day.
Some of this may be because of NHS111, but it is also definitely also the people who come up with these stories or react with horror to going to hospital for a broken finger - which cause others reluctance to ask for help when they need it.

Elllicam · 26/04/2020 12:12

I phoned 111 (Scotland) a few weeks ago when I was at my worst with Covid. Severely short of breath and chest pain. They told me to eat something and call back if it got worse.

UnderTheIroningBoard · 26/04/2020 12:12

I don't know if it is true, but the ambulance service was overstretched before this. If you are worried, and can safely get to hospital another way, then do that. If not, then I have been told (and I don't know how true it is, so please, someone correct me if it's wrong) that they can. not refuse to take you to A+E if you insist.

crazydiamond222 · 26/04/2020 12:15

This reply has been deleted

Copyright Talk Guidelines.

Xenia · 26/04/2020 12:15

I looked at oximeters the otehr day but Amazon had so many to choose frmo and there seemed to be negative reviews of quite a few or they come from China and take ages I gave up but some were only about £20 so might well be worth buying if someone can sort out which are good and arrive quickly. I'd buy one if someone worked that out for me.
Eg this one www.amazon.co.uk/Oximeter-Saturation-Fingertip-Omnidirectional-Display%EF%BC%88black/dp/B086Q142ZD/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=oximeters&th=1&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1587899647&sr=8-8 £21 "usually despatched in 2 - 3 days" someone wrote comes from China and takes weeks. I suppose despatched means pt on a very slow ship from China to UK.

PerditaProvokesEnmity · 26/04/2020 12:16

call a taxi

GrinGrinGrin

Hmm

I can just imagine calling my local taxi firm, breathless and hoarse, and asking them to take me to AE ...

Well aware that as someone in more than one at-risk group, self isolating alone, there's a fair possibility that if I get it I'll be dead before I get near a hospital. Neither Xenia's taxes nor a taxi will save me.

crazydiamond222 · 26/04/2020 12:17

Continued...

Pneumonia is an infection of the lungs in which the air sacs fill with fluid or pus. Normally, patients develop chest discomfort, pain with breathing and other breathing problems. But when Covid pneumonia first strikes, patients don’t feel short of breath, even as their oxygen levels fall. And by the time they do, they have alarmingly low oxygen levels and moderate-to-severe pneumonia (as seen on chest X-rays). Normal oxygen saturation for most persons at sea level is 94 to 100 percent; Covid pneumonia patients I saw had oxygen saturations as low as 50 percent.

To my amazement, most patients I saw said they had been sick for a week or so with fever, cough, upset stomach and fatigue, but they only became short of breath the day they came to the hospital. Their pneumonia had clearly been going on for

We are only just beginning to understand why this is so. The coronavirus attacks lung cells that make surfactant. This substance helps the air sacs in the lungs stay open between breaths and is critical to normal lung function. As the inflammation from Covid pneumonia starts, it causes the air sacs to collapse, and oxygen levels fall. Yet the lungs initially remain “compliant,” not yet stiff or heavy with fluid. This means patients can still expel carbon dioxide — and without a buildup of carbon dioxide, patients do not feel short of breath.

Share Your Stories From the Front Lines We want to hear from doctors, nurses and health care workers around the world.

Patients compensate for the low oxygen in their blood by breathing faster and deeper — and this happens without their realizing it. This silent hypoxia, and the patient’s physiological response to it, causes even more inflammation and more air sacs to collapse, and the pneumonia worsens until oxygen levels plummet. In effect, patients are injuring their own lungs by breathing harder and harder. Twenty percent of Covid pneumonia patients then go on to a second and deadlier phase of lung injury. Fluid builds up and the lungs become stiff, carbon dioxide rises, and patients develop acute respiratory failure.

By the time patients have noticeable trouble breathing and present to the hospital with dangerously low oxygen levels, many will ultimately require a ventilator.

Silent hypoxia progressing rapidly to respiratory failure explains cases of Covid-19 patients dying suddenly after not feeling short of breath. (It appears that most Covid-19 patients experience relatively mild symptoms and get over the illness in a week or two without treatment.)

A major reason this pandemic is straining our health system is the alarming severity of lung injury patients have when they arrive in emergency rooms. Covid-19 overwhelmingly kills through the lungs. And because so many patients are not going to the hospital until their pneumonia is already well advanced, many wind up on ventilators, causing shortages of the machines. And once on ventilators, many die.

Avoiding the use of a ventilator is a huge win for both patient and the health care system. The resources needed for patients on ventilators are staggering. Vented patients require multiple sedatives so that they don’t buck the vent or accidentally remove their breathing tubes; they need intravenous and arterial lines, IV medicines and IV pumps. In addition to a tube in the trachea, they have tubes in their stomach and bladder. Teams of people are required to move each patient, turning them on their stomach and then their back, twice a day to improve lung function.

There is a way we could identify more patients who have Covid pneumonia sooner and treat them more effectively — and it would not require waiting for a coronavirus test at a hospital or doctor’s office. It requires detecting silent hypoxia early through a common medical device that can be purchased without a prescription at most pharmacies: a pulse oximeter.

Pulse oximetry is no more complicated than using a thermometer. These small devices turn on with one button and are placed on a fingertip. In a few seconds, two numbers are displayed: oxygen saturation and pulse rate. Pulse oximeters are extremely reliable in detecting oxygenation problems and elevated heart rates.

Pulse oximeters helped save the lives of two emergency physicians I know, alerting them early on to the need for treatment. When they noticed their oxygen levels declining, both went to the hospital and recovered (though one waited longer and required more treatment). Detection of hypoxia, early treatment and close monitoring apparently also worked for Boris Johnson, the British prime minister.

Widespread pulse oximetry screening for Covid pneumonia — whether people check themselves on home devices or go to clinics or doctors’ offices — could provide an early warning system for the kinds of breathing problems associated with Covid pneumonia.

People using the devices at home would want to consult with their doctors to reduce the number of people who come to the E.R. unnecessarily because they misinterpret their device. There also may be some patients who have unrecognized chronic lung problems and have borderline or slightly low oxygen saturations unrelated to Covid-19.

All patients who have tested positive for the coronavirus should have pulse oximetry monitoring for two weeks, the period during which Covid pneumonia typically develops. All persons with cough, fatigue and fevers should also have pulse oximeter monitoring even if they have not had virus testing, or even if their swab test was negative, because those tests are only about 70 percent accurate. A vast majority of Americans who have been exposed to the virus don’t know it.

Curoi · 26/04/2020 12:22

An ambulance not coming out unless lips are blue was true in my sons case when he was under a year old but he had a condition where breathing difficulties where normal for him. My point is I think it depends on the context rather then the nhs letting people to die.

Moondust001 · 26/04/2020 12:23

If lots of people have reported it, it's probably true.
Lots of people have reported that coronavirus is caused by 5G, and others have burned down mobile masts. Does that make it true?

WatcherintheRye · 26/04/2020 12:28

Cross post with Chipotle. Oh dear. Maybe oxygen levels can be quibbled with, then.

Kind of ironic, if it's true about DC!

puffinandkoala · 26/04/2020 12:33

She says the problem they have is people are not calling until they are having real problems breathing because they’re terrified of going into hospital

I just don't believe this. Maybe in a very few cases - they've already got covid, after all.

The key reason our death rate is so high is because 111 are keeping people out of hopsital until it's too late. And the key reason why the German death rate is much lower is because they are getting people into hospital on time.

It's nothing to do with resources and everything to do with the attitude in the NHS that you are a time-waster if you dare to use the service you pay your taxes for. Once you actually get NHS care, it's very good indeed. But the problem is getting through the door in the first place and that doesn't just apply to covid, it applies to everything.

onlinelinda · 26/04/2020 12:34

Argos have oximeters

onlinelinda · 26/04/2020 12:35

www.argos.co.uk/product/5152513

Worriedmummy1976 · 26/04/2020 12:36

They took over 4 hours to get to my 7 year old when their collarbone snapped (after a fracture earlier that day) and she was screaming in agony unable to move from face down on the bed. We couldn’t even lift her to take her in the car. It took the maximum amount of oromorph and hours to get her into the ambulance when they finally arrived. Half way to hospital we came upon a crashed car abandoned in the middle of true road. Seeing as it was in a dangerous position we had to wait with the vehicle with the lights flashing for 2 hours before the police arrived. Finally, once we arrived in A&E we were treated like shit, a nurse who couldn’t speak a word of English kept manhandling her while she screamed and I had to scream at them not to touch her again as they were trying to move her into a different bed for absolutely no reason at all.

So no, I had absolutely no faith in our shitty, crumbling NHS before all this, I certainly don’t now.

MollyButton · 26/04/2020 12:36

@Xenia I took a risk on one a few weeks back, looked for a quick as possible delivery - and it came early. I tried it and it seemed okay. I would be using it though a bit like a thermometer as a guide. And should probably be used with monitoring the breathing rate, should be 12 to 20 breaths per minute.
It is now in the medicine box along with the thermometers.

But then my very high heart rate a couple of years ago was first measured by a simple app on my phone - and the hospital was surprised how accurate that was.

Namechanger20183110 · 26/04/2020 12:38

Definitely buy an oximeter, it's a no brainer and may save your life

MyBeloved · 26/04/2020 12:38

111 had an ambulance sent out to me, which arrived within 20 minutes (honestly). I had chest pains as part of my covid symptoms and they took it very seriously. At no point was I told my lips needed to turn blue.

Worriedmummy1976 · 26/04/2020 12:38

Worst of all is we pay a fortune for private healthcare which has always been excellent. Unfortunately you can’t use it for emergencies or pregnancies which is where I have experienced almost third world services .

BriefDisaster · 26/04/2020 12:40

My mum had pneumonia about 2 years ago. GP came for a home visit and phoned for an ambulance, warned my dad not to drive her she needed paramedics.

She waited 5 hours.

No pandemic then.

Add to that the people who will be phoning as soon as they get a bit of a cough and think that they must go straight to hospital at once via ambulance as they 'have Covid'.

Loads of people seem to think they will catch it, blue light to hospital, popped on a ventilator for a few days then hey presto, all better.

So yeah won't surprise me at all if this is true.

Namechanger20183110 · 26/04/2020 12:45

@Xenia look on eBay. I ordered one from there last week for less than £25 and it arrived in 4 days. There are plenty on there with shorter delivery dates. I have since ordered 2 more for my extended family and they are arriving next week

onlinelinda · 26/04/2020 12:59

I had an ambulance out when I first had probable Coronavirus, after 111 had had an assessment done by a nurse. And my GP thought I had it, too.

The paramedics turned up and because I didn't meet their very specific and narrow symptom at that stage (mid March) , one of them was really rude and arsey with me, pointing out the distance they had travelled.
Which is NOT my problem.

I had been assessed by 111, and their own staff on the phone, and I don't have to justify where I live. I am in shielding and with respiratory disease on top. Anyway, the other one was ok, and I suppose they were feeling worried for themselves in that first week, which is understandable. They had no PPE.

I was told then by them that they were only admitting under 65s to hospital, although the arsey one said 60 at first. And in any case I was under both age groups.

I should think that advice has now changed or been clarified and even then it may be a) local, and b) specific to that time and that hospital. We do know that in mid March when I had that visit there was a bed and ventilator crisis, and they we're getting a lot of call outs.

Overall I feel I've had good care in the community from my GP.

MollyButton · 26/04/2020 13:08

Worst of all is we pay a fortune for private healthcare which has always been excellent. Unfortunately you can’t use it for emergencies or pregnancies which is where I have experienced almost third world services .

This speaks of privilege - you obviously haven't experienced third worl healthcare. Or do you have to drive around several "hospitals" to try to find one that can actually do an X-ray?

I've always had fabulous care in maternity and A and E. And you can get private maternity - its just at your own expense unless a medically needed Caesarian. But if something goes wrong you will still end up back in a NHS hospital (probably, I'm not sure about the Portland).

WatcherintheRye · 26/04/2020 13:14

I was told then by them that they were only admitting under 65s to hospital, although the arsey one said 60 at first. And in any case I was under both age groups.

I wonder if that is a blanket guideline? I haven't been able to tell from any coverage whether those that fall ill in care homes are ever admitted to hospital with Covid/suspected Covid? Could it be that some people with relatively mild symptoms which could be helped with oxygen treatment are being left in care homes to deteriorate and die simply due to their age, rather than to any consideration of their chance of recovery? That would be scandalous imo, if that were the case.

BovaryX · 26/04/2020 13:26

From the Sunday Times:

a change in London’s NHS guidance has added to fears patients have been taken to hospital too late to save their lives.The NHS in London has altered its official guidance to lower the threshold at which paramedics take suspected coronavirus patients to hospital. London Ambulance Service (LAS) has changed how it uses a scorecard called News2, which helps assess whether callers to 999 are at risk of deteriorating.The disclosure is likely to prompt questions over whether some Covid-19 patients became seriously unwell or died because they were not taken to hospital before the guidance changed. From March 12 paramedics in the capital were told that suspected Covid-19 patients scoring as high as six might not need to be hospitalised. The guidance was then changed on April 10 to advise that people scoring between three and five should be taken in for assessment. LAS declined to say whether the change had been influenced by concerns that patients might have become seriously ill or died. It stressed that its previous guidance had been only one of several clinical assessments used by medics on the scene. The scoring system was never used in isolation, it added, and clinical judgment always took precedence. The revelation will add to fears that some patients have only reached hospital when they are already critically ill. Yesterday a study by the Intensive Care National Audit & Research Centre revealed that two-thirds of Covid-19 patients who had needed a ventilator died. Of 4,078 NHS intensive care patients where an outcome was known, 2,067 died and 2,011 were discharged. That equates to a mortality rate of 50.7%

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