"lips must turn blue before an ambulance will come out"

[lljkk]

I've heard that claim a few times, about probable cv19 cases not being allowed to go to hospital.

Is it true or just hyperbole? I think it might be a gross exaggeration. Does anyone have a link to a real named person or even an NHS staff person saying this has happened?

I'm happy to see a SAD face in tabloids where someone is willing to not anonymously say it happened to themself or their loved one or their patient. I can't even find a tabloid story like that, though.

I think the problem is the overstretched ambulance service, not the hospitals being unwilling to take patients. Even in normal times they have to prioritise calls so it can be hours to get an ambulance. Not helped by the way people seem to forget they can often get to the hospital under their own steam, making it worse for those who can't. And obviously options like taking a taxi or getting a friend to take you aren't available because of the infection risk.

This has resonated with me though that I would need to drive my family myself if there were no alternative or a long wait.

I can drive, although not yet legally. I have driven most of the route to the hospital before in lessons... I found myself pondering whether I'd do it to take a certain person I am rather fond of to hospital if needed. Would obviously try alternative avenues first...

Nevermind the fact that some ethnicities will never show 'blue' lips the way a Caucasian would ...

Interesting, milkjetmum that posters don't seem to have taken in your rather vital point. And I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else. (Though it's something that has been exercising my mind since it was first reported.)

It's almost laughable: PPE designed to fit men, and criteria for emergency treatment that can only be met by white sufferers of the virus.

"Brrr Brrrr"

"Hello ambulance service, is the paitent breathing?"

"Just about"

"OK well we can't call out sorry" Brrrrrrrrr..........

"Brrr Brrr"

"Hello Ambulance service, is the paitent breathing?"

"No, hes not "

"OK sorry about that then no point in us coming out"

Brrrrrrrrrr.....

:(

@Gwenhwyfar How can you say it's not true at all, just because it wasn't true for your MIL. If you MIL is old, decisions might be different.

Of course but telling everyone that they won't get an ambulance until your lips are blue is defo not true either. I think that has been an exception and not the rule. Seems like business as usual for the majority

I would not call 111 for example as I believe you sometimes have to wait on the line for 3 hours. Ambulances in some areas have taken 9 hours to arrive so I would get a member of the family to drive mt o A&E - even that may not work as Northwick Park Hospital not too far from us was full at one point and Watford not too far from us ran out of oxygen at one stage. I suspect where I am is probably not a great place to try to get NHS help, even if I have poured hundreds of thousands of direct income tax into it over the years and rarely used the NHS.

May be the ambulance service issues statistics as like most people I would rather deal in real facts. The newspapers did report one London lady, mother of 3 who called one, eventually ilt came (her husband called it and they refused to take her in). Next day he found her dead on the bathroom floor - ambulance came out then but too late. I think they need to get people in earlier although it's a hard call as so many people seem to do so badly in hospital and presumably there is loads of covid 19 around there so massive viral load which possibly could make the kind you have even worse. I don't know if you have strain B of it you could catch strain A of it in hospital for example although in theory you are probably not touching people in the next bed with it.

It happened to me 3 weeks ago. The paramedics came because DH was so worried that my lips had tinged a funny colour just before he called and NHS direct called an ambulance. It took 2 hours for them to come and one of them basically had a go at me in my own home, he was insistent on the fact that if I wasn't literally dying, my lips were not blue to not call NHS direct even because they were being too cautious so I assume 999 would have rejected it. I have asthma and I've never felt the way I did, I had been in tears for hours before trying to avoid us calling NHS Direct and not stressing the NHS service. I'd wrote a message to a family member and DH of what I wanted if I died and was sure I was dying.

I do fear that the number of deaths at home could be avoided, if it is two hours before an ambulance comes and you are meant to wait until your lips are blue and you're dying. Plus, a family member who works as a registrar has said that the number of home deaths has shot up where they live and they aren't being recorded as Coronavirus (potentially due to the fact people aren't being tested) but more so general breathing/respiratory issues.

We are clearly taking people in too late. Share link for the Times article

The articles comments that the ambulance service scorecard was that even people at level 6 symptoms would not always be taken in. They have now downgraded that to levels 3-5. I can't believe they did this for any reason other than the previous threshold was too high and people were dying unnecessarily.

The previous level was clearly a cynical decision to keep people out of hospital, presumably because they were worried about hospitals being overwhelmed. If they don't go into hospital they are never tested and therefore are not confirmed CV cases. Meanwhile the Nightingale hospitals have sat empty. TBH this stinks.

If we had managed treatment better then the concern about paralysing hospitals would probably prove to be misplaced anyway.

The main difference why more people recover in Germany seems to be that they get oxygen early (a la Boris). We need to switch to doing this asap. People could receive oxygen at home if needs be. Increasingly it is clear that once you are bad enough to need a ventilator the odds are severely against you and that ventilators may not be the way to go anyway. Treat early with oxygen as soon as people hit 95% needs to be the new rallying cry.

Surprised that people think waiting for an ambulance is a recent civid related problem.

I developed the meninges rash over my body in early 2000. My mum called the meningitis helpline who said 999 straight away and that I needed to be taken straight in. Timing with meningitis is critical. 39 mins later it still hadn't arrived. Dad called them back and said he was taking me. And he did.

5 years ago we waited 45 mins when ds had an accident. We were told he could not be moved or driven in. This isnt a new thing.

Its not a new thing. If ambulances were reluctant to take people in, there will have been reasons behind it.

I have several people in my social circle, all over England that have had it. The ones who have needed to go to hosoital have been taken in, without blue lips.

I am of mixed heritage. My lips would turn blue. I doubt my mums would.

But the fact remains, no trust is admitting this has been official guidance. Theres room in hospital. If this is true its due to the ambulance service. Not hospital capacity.

milkjetmum/PerditaProvokesEnmity - I’m not sure that’s entirely true. It may not show up elsewhere if you are very dark skinned, but the blue-greyness is normally quite noticeable around the lips, gums and tongue. Also around the eyes.

No personal experience of how ambulances are responding, but this is a very interesting NY Times article by an American emergency doctor who noticed that Covid pneumonia behaves in a very unusual way that means it is extremely advanced by the time the lips have turned blue and treatment is less likely to be effective by this point. Early oxygen treatment could be the most effective.

I think that is where the problem is - ambulances and in fact once you get into hospital I suspect the care is mostly fine so my instructions to my sons is drive me to A&E and if that A&E won't take me keep driving me round every London hospital A&E until we find one. Do not wait 2 or even 9 hours for an ambulance which might turn me away if dying....

Meowstro, I sorry you had to suffer that.

There was a case on the radio yesterday
Radio 4, Any Answers (this follows the Saturday edition of Any Questions - similar to the TV prog, but for Radio).
It was the last item.
The caller's father had rung his GP, who said stay at home.
The following day the father was dead.
Obviously, this was a GP, not ambulance.

It’s definitely true in our area. My brother is a police officer and confirmed to have Covid 19. He also has underlying health conditions. He has been unwell for 15 days, lost nearly two stone in weight as he is struggling to keep anything down. Twice his partner was concerned about his breathing and was told they wouldn’t see him until his lips were blue or he was unconscious. He still can’t get out of bed or take more than a few sips of water.

Does anyone know if the ambulance service managed to get the powers granted for forced entry without the attendance of the police? I worry in this climate that a lot of people who live a lone will lose their lives because the paramedics can't gain access to their homes. It seems like a simple thing for the dispatcher to ask the person to open their door but what if they can't? What if they lose consciousness during the call and what if they were too distracted with being unable to breathe to open the door before they became seriously ill and called? Is there any guidance out there on what people that live alone should do to prepare for this? Just in general, it will always be an issue. I know someone that died because the paramedics couldn't gain access. It's not a given that she would have survived if they did but they did write in their report that they couldn't gain access so they had to go to the main building and collect a key which lost them 7 minutes

Xenia I just wondered if you ever write posts that don't mention how much money you pay in taxes? Is it some sort of compulsion?

I have 2 friends both dead in their 40s who waited 2hrs+ for ambulances, pre Covid. I have no doubts they would still be here with earlier intervention.

If it gets to the point I think I, or any family member, needs hospital treatment it will be straight to a&e. I definitely wouldn't be hanging on a phone to 111 for hours then waiting more hours for an ambulance

A GP once advised me that lips turning blue should be the trigger to go to A&E with ds (3 years old at the time) when he was diagnosed with asthma - thankfully other doctors agreed with me that that was very poor advice.

I can only speak from my experience and area but when I rang 111 for suspected Covid (as advised after speaking with my GP) I got through within a few minutes, they were very helpful, offered for a clinician to call me back and told me if I had any breathlessness etc to call straight back and if necessary an ambulance would be sent. They even said to me they would much rather be safe than sorry and do all they can. Awful how it seems to differ so much within areas

I also don’t understand people waiting hours for ambulances. I am with Xenia. Get someone to drive you, family, neighbour, call a taxi. If you really think you are that bad surely you wouldn’t wait for an ambulance for hours and hours.

I never understand these stories where someone dies, the family all piles in stating they knew it was bad and no one thinks of getting them to A and E themselves. Understand of course with broken bones but other things. If I didn’t have a car then I would literally be calling neighbours and asking them.

frogshoe perhaps your brother should go into A and E? Honestly, oxygen could really help him and waiting may endanger him.

If anyone in my family gets it, we'll be going straight to A and E, 111 is too conservative and all the evidence coming out from Germany and US is that early intervention is what is needed and that covid is unpredictable, esp around a week onward, when you think you are getting better.

You can't ask the neighbours to take you to hospital with corona! The whole point is you ideally need an ambulance with PPE. If that doesn't happen, then asking a family member you are already living with is one thing, but for those on their own or those who don't have a family member can do that, then taxis/neighbours are really not going to be ok, are they? Unless you think their lives are also expendable?

That's the danger of living alone and several healthcare professionals have already died on their own or when family called ambulance, they were not taken in.

Not the experience myself or anyone I know (London).

Four admissions, no blue lips.

I think this has (wrongly) happened in a small number of cases and it's not subject to an echo chamber.

If true it’s absolutely scandalous, particularly as certainly some hospitals are not at capacity - it seems to be a triage issue rather than the hospital itself refusing to admit people.

It would explain our high death rates to some extent - if they’re not admitting people til they’re on the brink of needing a ventilator the survival chances will be much lower surely.

As others say, if it came to the crunch I think It would be a case of driving to A&E rather than faffing with some 111 algorithm or waiting for an ambulance. Saying that I’m
Not sure what we’d do with our 2 toddlers if one of us had to drive the other to hospital.

The whole situation is a bloody nightmare.

I'm surprised people are surprised. There was a lot of coverage about CV cases being triaged meaning that quite a few categories of people would be left to die at home without medical intervention.

I think there was a time before the Nightingale hospitals were operational, when we were coming to peak and there was a shortage of beds with oxygen/ventilators.

It should be better for the inevitable second wave because we'll have the Dyson ventilators (let's hope they work) and I believe more oxygen stocks are being ordered.

The big problem for the second wave will be the number of medical staff who are ill or who have so very sadly died. That's when we'll really feel the impact of 12 years of austerity and no nursing bursaries/poor nursing wages.

Hopefully PPE is being stockpiled massively now in readiness.... Winter is Coming.

@CookieBlue That was my experience both times - the second time I had complications and was very confused but adamant I did not need am ambulance and just needed someone to get me some paracetemol (I have no fucking idea what I was thinking). An ambulance was there within five minutes and 111 stayed on the phone with me the entire time.

@YappityYapYap I don't think they did as the first thing I was asked to do was open my front door when they arranged the ambulance.