"lips must turn blue before an ambulance will come out"

[lljkk]

I've heard that claim a few times, about probable cv19 cases not being allowed to go to hospital.

Is it true or just hyperbole? I think it might be a gross exaggeration. Does anyone have a link to a real named person or even an NHS staff person saying this has happened?

I'm happy to see a SAD face in tabloids where someone is willing to not anonymously say it happened to themself or their loved one or their patient. I can't even find a tabloid story like that, though.

NoisyTwats Again, this will be dependant on area and each local force. You can't categorically say all police forces aren't coming out. My DH is a police officer and it has been business as usual for them, slightly less busy if anything, but a lot of domestics and mental health jobs. He attended a burglary in progress on Thursday night so in your situation he absolutely would have been sent out. He has also attended several jobs (Covid and mental health situations) where paramedis have been called and attended quickly so not all areas are busy/responding the same. You simply can't generalise.

It was reported in our local paper that this was the case. Not sure if it still is. I've bought a pulse oximeter just in case.

@strawberry2017 it’s absolutely what happened. What’s the point of being on a thread about it if you have no intention of believing people’s accounts? We’re in London. I’ve seen on another thread this morning that there’s coverage in the Times about the decision making criteria for ambulance support in London having been reviewed as it was too stringent.

Not true. If you call an ambulance, an ambulance has to come. Even if they are pretty sure it is a prank call or someone with severe health anxiety who rings 999 every time they feel a muscle twitch.

That is bollocks. I work for an ambulance service. If there is breathing difficulties you will get a C2 ambulance disposition. In the last month or so I have been sent to maybe 50 ?covid breathing difficulties and only about 3 have needed to go to hospital. And 2 of those we were just being cautious because they were babies. Also, as mentioned up thread, you won't get an ambulance just because you ask for one. It will only be dispatched if an ambulance disposition is reached once the call taker has followed the appropriate pathway. Likely to be referred elsewhere if possible.

@BurningGubbins I said in my post you would have either received an ambulance or been passed to a clinician for further assessment.
Your subsequent post says a clinician called you back every 4 hours.
So what I said was accurate.

Is it true or just hyperbole? I think it might be a gross exaggeration

I think I have to agree with this, I think it's a case of Chinese whispers where what actually happened has been morphed into a completely different story as it's been passed along. I don't believe people are being denied treatment in hospitals but I can imagine a lot of people calling for an ambulance when they really do not need one so are asked to make their own way to hospital.

I may be totally wrong but thats my take on it.

I dont think its true. My 15 month old had an accident and i wasnt sure if he banged his head or not, he was fine in every other way but ambulance was here in 20 mins and took us to a and e, (which was almost abandoned)

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-52317781

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/take-more-coronavirus-patients-to-hospital-paramedics-told-jks756c63

This article is paywalled but must appear somewhere else.

Yes, the criteria for taking people to hospital in London has been lowered, leading people to worry that it was too high before.

I think of that poor nurse, one of the first to die, who phoned up and was told she wasn't ill enough then died by the next day. If you google then several of the nurses that died either didn't get through to 111 or did and the ambulance turned up and didn't take them in.

This is not made up at all.

There was a poster on here a few weeks ago who couldn't get an ambulance for a long time for her young daughter whose breathing (I think) was seriously compromised.

She hadn't thought to drive her daughter to A&E during her long wait. This has resonated with me though that I would need to drive my family myself if there were no alternative or a long wait. We're lucky we both drive and have two cars though.

The post has stayed with me.

I know someone whose ill toddler had a persistent rash on about 18 March; the ambulance was around very sharpish (paramedics confirmed child had neither signs of cv19 nor meningitis). But we are in a barely affected county. I imagine London or Brum could be different.

could posters link to the non-MN places where they have seen such reports? Heck, I'll take a Facebook post. I have impression that ICU in our county never even reached regular maximum capacity, much less a surge capacity. One of the hospitals started by admitting everyone who tested positive if they wanted to be admitted (they never ran out of capacity). We are low affected, though.

@mrsed1987

Babies/toddlers are treated differently. It’s the same as the doctors has to always get them a same day appointment.

Well it’s not true re the police here (very big SE commuter town, we have a lot of covid cases), the police were out to raid a drug house in our street on Thursday ... there was massive neighbourhood excitement!

I’ve only got indirect anecdotes (but real life at least) re the ambulance - I’m far more worried about people not calling for help than I am about an ambulance not arriving when they do call.

"I think I'd have got a taxi if no car."

What? With a certain and serious case of Covid, you'd pass it on to the taxi driver?

"Not true at all. Since lockdown started I've had 3 ambulances out to my MIL (all within 10 mins) with breathing difficulties. Each time she was able to speak to them herself so not at the blue lips stage either."

How can you say it's not true at all, just because it wasn't true for your MIL. If you MIL is old, decisions might be different.

Times is reporting that they have just changed the 111 guidance in London due to concerns it was preventing care.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/25/london-woman-36-dies-of-suspected-covid-19-after-being-told-she-is-not-priority

But what if you live alone, can't drive yourself to a hospital (too unwell) and can't get up to check whether your lips are blue or not?

There are also concerns that the UK is treating patients far too late.
I'm not surprised 111 was found to be preventing care. We unfortunately have a system where 111 and GPs are seen as gatekeepers with the job of keeping people away from hospital.

Ime the ambulance will come out to seeing you are turning blue. If you are sick (even very sick) but your o2 sat is not 92 or below, they will leave you to "manage" at home and tell you to call back if you deteriorate. One of the signs of deterioration you are given is getting blue about the mouth. Many people left at home fo get better . For those that don't, the deterioration can be swift and deadly.

I have a friend who is running our local ICU. As the pandemic has developed, it has been realised across the world that many very ill patients who have low oxygen levels are presenting as being ok. This was exactly the situation Boris Johnson found himself in.

There is now a big push for people to go to hospitals earlier. If you think you are not coping at home then just get to hospital as soon as you can.

Bad cases make news

Ongoing adequate health services doesn’t

I had cancer testing on Friday in person (you can’t do it over the phone!) and all patients used alcohol solution to clean hands and were given masks to wear.

Also with mother - when I phoned 101 police non emergency number - sent a squad care round and ambulance round in 15 minutes on Easter Monday, spent a couple of hours treating me, involved her GP ( surgery directed to remain open over Easter) and appeared genuinely shocked when I apologised for taking resource.

However, I guess neither example is headline worthy

I see the naysayers have gone quiet...

Look, 2 months ago I would have been in your position, convinced that if you’re genuinely in need of help then someone will come. It has been truly frightening to experience that that is not always the case.

I now bypass 111, and would drive a loved one to the covid hub / covid A&E if I felt it was necessary.

111 is really not set up for covid. A non medically trained call centre employee who’s following a decision tee, doesn’t have the training, knowledge or context to be able to make a call on where to signpost these patients. Which is why some patients slip through the net. The patient may well have a symptom that is key to identifying the seriousness of their condition, but it’s not a question on the 111 software so they get de prioritised / left.

I have only used 111 twice in the past. The first time was when my mother was close to death / dead. The 111 handler was insistent I confirm to her whether mum was still alive or dead, as that affected how they triaged and her place in the queue. . I am not medically trained in any sense.

The second was when my son had a serious infection post surgery. You could tell by looking at him that he was pretty ill. They said the spiking fevers were probably due to a hot room, and his tummy ache was likely constipation. Gave up, went to A&E and he needed further surgery to save his life.

So yep, 111 is not for me.