Attitudes changing?

[CathyandHeathcliff]

Has anybody noticed attitudes changing over the past few days?

It seems to have gone from Facebook comments on articles calling for a stricter lockdown and so on, to calling for lockdown to be lifted sooner rather than later, comments about the economy failing and weighing up the balance.

It's not practical to have 30-40% percent of the UK population shield.

How is this any less practical than having 100% of the population in lockdown?

And I'm not sure where your 40% comes from... there are currently 1.5million people shielding out a population of 66million.

You must realise the NHS would stop running if everyone especially those at risk got ill or died (particularly bear in mind many at risk work for the NHS)?

Is the NHS even running right now? They've stopped basically everything apart from Covid treatment all while nightingale hospitals are sitting empty.

What do you think happens to the economy if we have unchecked Covid running through the UK? Even if people don't die, many mild cases are still knocked off their feet for weeks.

Again I do not see how it could be any worse than 100% of the population off their feet right now. So we have a terrible 6 months with reduced services while people call in sick. This would be over the summer when the NHS has most capacity, anyway. And then it's done. It's passed through the bulk of the population and it's over until the next pandemic. To me this is preferable to years of on and off lockdowns, people certainly losing their jobs and businesses, their homes, fucking up children's education. People are holding on to this vaccine, who says there is one? Who says it won't just mutate over the winter? It's already mutated three times, it's not ridiculous to think it won't happen again.

Just because some lucky people have it extremely mildly don't assume that's the case for everyone.

I'm not. I'm basing my opinions on the statistics. By the same measure we keep hearing all these people screaming til they're blue in the face that it effects young and healthy people too!!! So do car crashes. So does cancer. The risk is so minuscule it's not worth losing sleep over. And for me it's certainly not work risking my home, business, or children's education for.

Scotland's total population is less than 6 million. It's also, a few large cities excepted, more spread out. Very different to England especially some parts. Whether the majority of Scots want to be guinea pigs I don't know. Anyone from there here who has a view?

I think I made my views pretty clear 🤣

No, to be honest in hindsight, I think knowing everything we know now, we probably locked down and closed schools a bit too soon.

If I remember correctly we had 108 people in hospital with CV at the point we closed schools and most people started locking down. Our hospitals were nowhere near capacity. We saw the images from Italy, the action taken in Ireland, and we (quite rightly!) shat ourselves.

But I don't personally know anyone who has it. I hear ambulances because I live next door to the biggest hospital in the region... but if it wasn't for that I wouldn't even know there was a pandemic going on.

I do think measures need to be more targeted, and that could be the happy medium between the people who want stricter / extended lockdown and the people who want to resume as normal. I would feel much better about what I was giving up if I actually knew it was in my community, you know?

I agree Synde A happy medium looks like the best way forward. Sorry if I've misunderstood you. Do you mean you think most Scots would support easing of lockdown to be trialled there? Or do you think they'd want to wait until we have mass testing and enough PPE for staff and masks for the public?

No idea how you think I'm being authoritarian Smile? I see asking other people their views as being the opposite actually. I've asked you several times if you'd like to see lockdown eased on a regional basis? You seem keen for an early end so I wondered if that's what you want. I suggested it might be the way to go. It looks like we might agree on something!

Less empathy? I'd say dismissing a very large proportion of the population as being expendable lacks empathy.

Pragmatic solutions. Yes. So what's your opinion on the practical suggestions I've made? Things that could help abuse victims? A possible source of financial aid? The relatively simple measures the government needs to take to enable a sustainable easing of lockdown? What you do think? Do you not agree that generally more haste less speed is relevant? As I've said I don't know everything and always like to hear other people's views and ideas.

Why not answer reasonable questions instead of accusing people of doing something they're not?

The PP who referred to the shielding list. As I've said, and you can see for yourself on published world figures, some of the conditions with the highest Covid death rates are not on the shielding list. Nor are the elderly. Or BAME communities. That's a lot of people.

Toffee the death toll figure for the UK is not 40,000 which is what confused me.

I disagree. I think if people knew we could on 7th May, it would be more likely that they'd hold off until then. But if people have no idea and just think this could go on for God knows how long, they're more likely to think oh stuff it, I'm going to the park for a picnic. Couldn't agree more.

40,000 is an estimate, calculated from excess deaths rather than covid in hospital figures, and based the fact that the figure we have for excess deaths is time delayed.

www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab

We are actually putting ourselves at risk of a worse second peak because we're too good at lockdown. Not enough people have caught it and that actually makes it harder to ease the measures without creating another big spike (assuming antibodies do their thing).

My guess is that's why that police guidance doc on excuses for being outside was released and some shops seemingly allowed to reopen - to encourage a bit more social mixing and make people feel like they can do riskier things, to ensure this peak is actually a peak not a blip.

We are SO far away from a test and trace or vaccine solution, and they can't keep us on lockdown till then, so they need people to get it.

Did anyone else see Channel 4 news tonight. More "Universal Credit wont cover the rent" shocker.

@nellodee I think the FT's figure is probably massively underestimating too, if the Govt "only counts those who have died in hospitals after testing positive for the virus".

I've been told testing is only 30% accurate and most people are clinically diagnosed (if that's the right term) based on their symptoms alone.

So the figure on hospital deaths alone could be 50,000 plus

@nanbread that figure is incorrect. It was a story published on OpenDemocracy. PHE have provided a full statement.

@strawberryblondestar I can't read what you've shared unfortunately, does it say how accurate (or not) they are? I've been told by at least two doctor friends that the tests aren't accurate and I also am friends with someone who definitely had the virus (ended up in ITU needing oxygen, and family members also had it with all typical symptoms) - but tested negative. There are some Mumsnet posters who also were tested more than once and all negative despite the Drs confirming it was CV.

Yep! I think it's the lack of direction, aside from we will need test and trace in place before relaxing anything, well if their performance so far is anything to go by, that will be another 30 or so years. People locally are definitely posting less of the lock them all up for being outside, to being happy that things starting to reopen, such as more restaurants have opened with just takeaway options (which is permitted). No one was clapping at 8pm either, when in previous week's it has been really loud, the fatigue has kicked in. They need to get a grip on it really and give clear and consistent guidance otherwise people will start to go rogue.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/19/scientists-raise-concerns-about-quality-of-uk-covid-19-tests

And here is a PHE official whistleblowing on the test's accuracy!

Yet another lie in this whole debacle...

@nanbread here’s the link. Less then 2% inconsistencies and while the quoted figure of 25% is incorrect

mobile.twitter.com/PHE_uk/status/1252568293266907136

Smile I hope people who haven't time to rtft don't assume incorrectly from your last post that I called you stupid. I didn't of course. I was wondering what motivated people to ignore lockdown rules. I wondered if it's stupidity or suicidal inclination or something else. I asked you what you thought it was. Separately of course some stupid people exist in world. Do you not believe that?

I also didn't accuse you of seeing anyone as expendable. I asked if you did. I still actually don't know if you do because you haven't answered the question.

Merkel has warned some of the German states against premature ending of their lockdowns. As a scientist she understands the danger of a second wave. Her good handling of the situation so far is why Germany has one of the lowest death rates. We're the opposite.

Our papers were today reporting how we'll have wave after wave with repeated sudden (no warning) lockdowns. So a premature end to the first in May means a second lockdown when we could, like last year, have heatwave weather. As before I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm asking people why on earth they want that? I genuinely don't understand what makes them think that's desirable.

Likewise stop, start, stop, start economy. Why do people think that's a good idea? Do they not think it will more damaging to the economy than a longer initial lockdown? I'm interested to know.

Oh yes, and I am delighted more and more companies are opening up again. I walked into the city centre today in my large city in the NW to see my counsellor face-to-face and there was more cars on the main road than I've seen for a few weeks. I just read that UK roads have been 10% busier this week than in any week this month. I hope that more companies will follow Taylor Wimpey, KFC and others to lead us all getting back to work again, which has to happen asap.

I'd like it to continue but I do understand wanting it to end. I miss my family and friends... I like 400 miles away from family so literally cannot even go to their street

I agree Coriander I want it to end too. Just not before it's prudent - because of the danger of unnecessary additional lives lost, economic chaos, and a constant stop, start, stop, start of lockdowns.

I hope the government is getting on with organising mass testing, getting PPE, masks. The sooner they do, the better.

I don't understand why people don't understand the more haste less speed principle. It's very basic common sense.

I don't know either. I really don't know. I think many people are in denial about the immoveable facts of a pandemic and exponential growth. They are used to blaming the govt rather than biological reality. I know the govt have made huge mistakes but the virus is still a fact.

Many who are desperate for lockdown to end are the same people who will lose out most if we end it too soon. Most of things they want to access by ending lockdown are all things that won't be happening unless there has been an effective reduction in levels of the virus. It's becoming nonsensical really.

You explain it far better and more succinctly than me Inkpaperstars!

I was thinking you explain it really well Toffee

inkpaper you are so right in what you say.

A friend told me that her husband who is on furlough has decided to do some odd jobs in the scout hut (he is a volunteer scout master) so he was there yesterday doing painting etc that is difficult to arrange or find time for in normal times. Another friend is piling the decking on the balcony at her watersports club today.
Both are obviously driving their but have made a decision to do something useful - so I think people are basically working out a modus operandi that impacts on no/one's health even if they are marking journeys to other locations.