Are we wanting immortality?

[MsHeffaPiglet]

It's sad that people in care homes have died.

Does it matter whether they died because of cornavirus, rather than a general infection, from a fall, from a stroke or a heart attack or just old age?

If you are 80, 85, 90 or 95, isn't waking up each day a blessing. Does someone of that age expect or want to live forever?

I understand that you want to spend the last moments with loved ones and that is the cruellest thing with coronavirus and the need to isolate from everyone.

However, I just don't understand the shock, horror at the fact that elderly people in care homes have been affected so much. Is it so surprising?

But it's not coronavirus OR dying peacefully in your sleep. There are strokes, falls, pneumonia etc. I'm not sure how many people pass away in their sleep but I cant imagine it's the majority of people.

I do agree OP. It is the same among the smokers and the morbidly obese. They've been staring mortality in the face for years yet theres sudden panic now it's a virus threatening them and not, say, a stroke. The number of posts I've seen saying 'I am morbidly obese and so scared of catching the virus'. Whereas the thought of a heart attack didnt faze them

However that doesnt mean we should just accept the virus and carry on, putting these demographics at risk. They are all people whose lives are valuable.

I'm with you OP. I don't get our irrational fear of death and our extreme desire to cling onto life for all people at all costs. Of course I wouldn't want anyone to die the painful, choking and lonely death that coronavirus is, but I personally don't want to drag out my life for as long as possible, being operated on so that I can spend an extra 10 years in bed, leaving the house only for my hospital appointments. I know far too many people who live like this and have for years.

I'm not scared of dying and want to do it before life becomes mere existence. People are horrified at this. I've told DH I don't want to grow old and he thinks I'm being macabre. Why? We will all die. Why fear it? It's natural. What's unnatural is intervening with nature's decline and keeping people alive well beyond what their bodies and minds can cope with. I feel so sorry for people who have been cured of cancer or heart disease in their seventies only to spend their eighties confused and distressed with Alzheimers. It's cruel.

“It is less tragic to have a disease that mainly kills older people than people of all ages".

Any sane person knows this surely? Can we even contemplate an equivalent that mainly targets children? (God forbid).

Appalling ageism on this thread and people excusing it and dehumanising the elderly. There but for the grace of God go I etc.

Any sane person knows this surely? Can we even contemplate an equivalent that mainly targets children? (God forbid).

And yet, it happens in other parts of the world! In sub-Sahara Africa, millions of children die of malaria before the age of 5.

. I’m so pleased my dad died sooner than he might have done. His death was a blessing. He cheated some very unpleasant symptoms and I’m proud that we let him go when he was ready.

I can’t answer that Mittens but thank you for saying it.

@mittens.

The blasé attitude towards the deaths of elderly people and those with health problems is very sad IMO

Blasé attitude? You do realise these are the most likely people to die. And whatever our attitude. Life moves on. Babies are born. People die...

What is it that's bothering you enough to post this OP? Is it specifically that news stories are implying that the deaths in care homes matter, rather than... what? What would you like them to say, how would you like them to phrase it? Or would you prefer it not to be reported at all? Or is it people you know saying that it's shocking? Honestly I would say the fact that care homes are suddenly losing a dozen residents in one week is still newsworthy even to people who know all about what that kind of life and eventual death is like (I do).

Or is it that you think that the lockdown is designed to protect these people who are going to die soon anyway and so you disagree with it? I see that misunderstanding a lot, but the fact is the lockdown is not happening to protect vulnerable people alone. If the only thing that Covid-19 was ever going to do was to kill old or ill people who are already at death's door, none of this would be happening. The lockdown is happening for everyone else, for society as a whole, so that we continue to have a functioning country and NHS and things don't collapse due to exploding cases of a new illness that none of us have any immunity to. Things would not be normal, regardless of our attitudes to death or how much we as a society think deaths in care homes are significant or not.

To be honest Mittens, I think all deaths involve struggling for breath.

I’d rather die of this virus than motor neurone disease any day.....

I think every life is precious and holds equal value in the moment. Who’s to say a 75 year old won’t live another 20 years and enjoy most of those, whilst a 19 yo might take up meth and piss their life away within a few?

I appreciate that this is an unusual view.

I agree op.

I friend of mine's nan had a really terrible time. She was in a care home with dementia for her last two years, in the last year she had several near death incidents. Nan looked like she was going to die about four times, most times she was taken to hospital, family were all called and told to say goodbye, nan pulled through instead. This pattern was then repeated. It was massively stressful for the whole family and the nan suffered terribly. I was horrible to watch my friend.

In contrast, I have a 90 yo neighbour, she is fit (for 90) no dementia. She is absolutely refusing to shelter and is going out every day even taking the bus. I've asked her if she actually wants to catch the virus, she says 'no' but as far as she's concerned, there are worse things at her age. She's watched lots of her friends develop dementia or other health conditions and that's the last thing she wants.

Some people here are minimising the horror of pneumonia at the stage where you cannot breathe. As someone who has been close to passing away with pneumonia a couple of times I have to disagree that it makes for an easy and peaceful passing. I still have nightmares remembering the struggle to breathe and the feeling of drowning, and the pain was utterly hideous, like nothing id had before - and I have long term lung disease. It horrifies me when people minimise deaths from Covid or even call them a blessing because I'm the situation it can be utterly awful, before you pass out or are sedated. O certainly don't want to catch covid and possibly go through that again. There are different levels of pneumonia - I get it a lot - but the worst type is hideous, believe me.

“ The lockdown is happening for everyone else, for society as a whole, so that we continue to have a functioning country and NHS and things don't collapse due to exploding cases of a new illness that none of us have any immunity to”

But are we functioning? The NHS is not functioning normally. And the NHS isn’t powered by love it is powered by tax which isnt being generated.

None of the people on here advocating for the deaths of elderly people will be elderly people. Cowards at the least.

It’s a horrible time at the moment. I am very sad for peoples losses.

But I do understand partly where OP is coming from. I lost both my parents early - in their 40s and 50s. I never knew my dad. My mum didn’t get to see any of her grandchildren. They both had distressing deaths. I lost aunts in their 50s. A cousin at 42. Grandparents all passed in their early 70s. My wonderful, vibrant, talented nan had to go in a care home due to my mum’s illness. She hated every minute of it. If I get this awful virus, I will be lucky to survive it. My daughter is shielding. Circumstances like these make you more pragmatic about death and dying.

I don't agree that there is a blase attitude to the elderly on this thread. I think it's more an acceptance of life and death.

Yes, more measures could be in place to not introduce CV into care homes; ppe, better training for carers, better provisions, more testing.

However short of vacuum packing residents and forcing all the staff to live in a bubble it's completely unrealistic to say they shouldn't die of covid without their families That would simply be an impossible demand. I agree it's fucking awful that family can't visit or comfort infected family. That is the nature of this cruel virus.

There are children, mums and dads dying every single day. Across the globe. Nothing is said. But now we are outraged elderly people are dying??

If I had motor neurone disease I'd rather die.
That should be my right but unless laws change it would never happen. It's sad I can't make that decision myself legally I wished we had dignatas ( sp?) clinics in the U.K. I think it should be a persons right to die and not kept alive if they don't want to be.

Right... I have had some wine tonight and consequently am probably less tactful than usual but...

Until (and if) a viable vaccine is found we have nothing other than lockdown to help suppress infections and deaths. Economically this is unsustainable in the long term. And I don’t mean, “some rich people are going to suffer because the stock market tanks”
, I mean mass unemployment and serious poverty in the UK, never mound the global south.

So, as a society, we will need to be t to the point where we decide how much death we are willing to accept for how much social distancing.

Personally, I would rather stay home with my kids indefinitely, bit socially and psychologically it isn’t fair in either me or them, and frankly our family business couldn’t survive if society continued in it’s suspended fashion (even though we operate In a relatively robust industry)

So... we are all going to have to get a little more close,y aquainted with death and disease and we Re all going to have to (re)learn to live with a slightly more precarious existence

@andhessixfeetten @elephantsumbrellas

I know, there isn't anything to be said, it's how it is right now. I was trying to put across a little perspective on what's happening now. I therefore don't understand the hysteria about COVID-19, despite the fact that hundreds of people are dying of COVID-19 and I myself am suffering from it, most likely.

That's not to say that it isn't important to take proper precautions, to not do that would be foolhardy. Same as when i was in Africa for several short periods of time working on various charity projects, I took the necessary precautions against malaria (I had it once).

But the African friends I made didn't spend their lives panicking about mosquitoes, if they did they wouldn't have lived any kind of life at all.

So my point really is that all diseases cause risks, and the only way to deal with it is to take necessary precautions and then live your lives.

My Nan died in a care home two years ago. If she was still alive I’d want her to get it and die because it was no life at all. It’s what she would have wanted too. She lived until 93 but was ready to die by about 85.

EmMac7
I believe that's quite a medieval view (that's not a dig btw, I mean that's what people believed then apparently) People though everyone had the same chance of death each day regardless of how old you are. Obviously we now know that's not true and that a 90yo is a much greater risk of death than a 20yo each year. Maybe that knowledge colours our modern view in that most of us do think the death of a child is a tragedy and the death of a 90yo isn't.

I agree with people that I who have broadly made the following points:

• in this country and time, people should ideally be surrounded by loved ones when they die and given any medication that makes them more comfortable
• I don’t particularly feel sad or surprised by the elderly who are dying in homes (except for the point above).
• I don’t believe most people in homes have a great quality of life, especially given how much they cost.
• I also am not surprised that the life expectancy once you go into a home is 2years at most.

Finally, I hope euthanasia becoming legal gets considered ASAP and also that people will now consider looking after relatives at home themselves (with external help if needed) rather than shoving them in homes.

Happy to be flamed!

I've had similar thoughts. It is a very different scenario if most people dying are very elderly. To me, it does make a difference how worthwhile it is to continue imposing massive social, psychological and economic costs on society.

I admit that it may make well make a difference that I don't have any elderly relatives that I am very close to. My parents both died just a little older than yours OP. My grandmother outlived them both. She died in a carehome in her mid 90s. To be honest, it was more than time. The sense of loss and tragedy bore no relation to my parents' deaths.