Are we wanting immortality?

[MsHeffaPiglet]

It's sad that people in care homes have died.

Does it matter whether they died because of cornavirus, rather than a general infection, from a fall, from a stroke or a heart attack or just old age?

If you are 80, 85, 90 or 95, isn't waking up each day a blessing. Does someone of that age expect or want to live forever?

I understand that you want to spend the last moments with loved ones and that is the cruellest thing with coronavirus and the need to isolate from everyone.

However, I just don't understand the shock, horror at the fact that elderly people in care homes have been affected so much. Is it so surprising?

I agree OP. I've worked in care homes and 99% of the residents had severe dementia and it's no way to 'live'...although coronavirus is a horrible way to die, most deaths aren't very nice, dying peacefully in your sleep is a rare blessing.

I don't really see what else is to be done about the situation in care homes. Yes try and prevent spread but they should definitely not be attempting to treat these (very frail if in a care home) people in hospital - futile and waste of resources. I don't understand all the pearl clutching over this.

I'm so sorry for your loss Irwell

I'm afraid I know of one retirement home where vistors were snuck in through a back door because a resident's relative manages the facility and allowed that resident visitors.

@irwellmummy very sorry to hear about your uncle

However i think OP is referring to those frail enough to be in care homes.

I'm useless at linking articles, but there's an interesting piece on the BBC news website Corona virus: How to understand the death toll.
It plots chances of dying from corona virus vs normal annual risk and if you look at over 80s there is significant overlap. The fact is that elderly are at risk of dying, the risk of dying from corona virus is almost the same (slightly raised) as the risk of them dying without it.

I feel very sorry for anyone who has lost anyone to this awful disease but I do think it’s made us all aware of our own mortality in a way that we don’t normally have to think about. To know what an awful death it is etc etc. I don’t think most people realise that people dying painlessly in their sleep is actually quite rare. Most people die from “something”, I’ve seen three people die from (different sorts of) cancer and it’s not like the movies. They don’t drift off peacefully, all of them died horrible deaths. I think the whole Covid 19 thing is making us all feel very uncomfortable about dying. But the truth is none of us are going to be here forever.

There are plenty of young people in care homes. Do those with learning disabilities, severe physical disabilities, neurological disorders or severe mental illness also deserve to have their life cut short prematurely?
There are very elderly people coming out of hospital who have survived the disease. Should treatment be refused simply because they are older?
None of us immortal but neither do we have a date stamp.

Oh well @SpeedofaSloth if your paretsdidnt get to enjoy their 70s clearly no one else should either. Wonder whether you'll change your tune when you get there.

Who's lacking empathy? I lost my mother to pneumonia.

No one is saying anyone "deserves" to die, just that everyone does and for some people, in this case - elderly people in care homes, it is likely to be sooner rather than later.

Those in care homes are there because they are usually frail, have major health issues and need care of various levels from others.

Not everyone can be saved if they succumb badly to the coronavirus.

Dying from it, from pneumonia, is not the way we want family and friends to pass away. However, do we want highly invasive, traumatic intervention, to be given to them for a few extra days, weeks or months of life. As people have said on other threads, being on a ventilator is traumatic for stronger individuals never mind frail, elderly persons.

It's not about rationing resources, it's about the effect on the individual for the sake of relatives not wanting or willing to let go. Just because you can try and prolong someone's life, should you? What will be the quality of that life? Would the person concerned thank you for it?

I think I am straying onto other territory, so will shut up now.

How many elderly people actually drift off gently in their sleep though? I watched my father die of cancer and he certainly did not drift off to sleep. It was brutal.

Many, many elderly people die of pneumonia, whether that is due to COVID or another virus/bacterium. That is the end that is waiting for a lot of us. The hard facts are that we do not live forever and death is not peaceful, COVID or no COVID.

I think if any of my relatives were facing a care home for the rest of their lives due to dementia or similar, I would honestly be hoping something else carried them off as quickly as possible. I can't

Oops. Meant to say that a lot of people think that death is the worst possible thing. I can't really understand that viewpoint. My grandmother died very suddenly aged 80 in seemingly good health and fitness. That was a shock at the time, but looking back she was incredibly lucky and so were we for not having to see her grow old and frail.

I wonder this too sometimes.

My parents and grandparents are so dear to me and I will be heartbroken when they eventually die. I’m glad I’ve got so many happy memories and if we all make it through this I will definitely try to cherish everyone that bit more.

But the fact is death is a part of life. It is less tragic to have a disease that mainly kills older people than people of all ages. Everyone has to die of something. I sometimes don’t understand the end goal of desperately trying to cure every disease and often wonder if nature would come up with some even more nasty things if we did.

Not immortality, no, but equally I don’t want to die drowning in my own lungs in extreme pain and distress. Nor would I want anyone to die like that, irrespective of their age.

Many people have a peaceful death. It's far from uncommon. I used to care for elderly people in their own homes, many of whom had terminal conditions. The majority had what I'd say was a peaceful death. They gradually spent more and more time asleep/in an unconscious state and knew nothing of their passing. My own Grandmother died of pneumonia(in hospital) and her death was incredibly peaceful. She didn't suffer at all. That doesn't mean it's the case for everyone, but a peaceful death in old age is not so rare as people are claiming.

The most common cause of death for elderly people in care homes is pneumonia.
I’m talking PRE COVID, before corona even existed. Do people not realise this? The idea that most care home residents pass peacefully in their sleep is simply not true. I wish it was but it’s not. Pneumonia is what you usually find on the death certificates.

The most common cause of death for elderly people in care homes is pneumonia

By several means. My own mother's path was stroke, then aspiration pneumonia. This isn't uncommon. Sometimes the starting point is a fracture, followed by immobilisation, then pneumonia.

I can see where the op is coming from but it's not written very well and yes sounds callous.
Maybe this current health crisis might start people talking about death a bit more. It's not a subject people like to talk about.
Maybe we should.

I think we should face our deaths a bit more, yes. We might be better prepared in lots of ways, possibly.

@floatygoat

I agree. Developing dementia and having your thoughts, feelings, perceptions, memory, connection with loved ones, independence all slip away is sad. I'm not convinced then dying from a chest infection makes it sadder.

Care homes for people with LD and some other conditions need to be distinguished from dementia care though.

@sunfloweryy

"It is less tragic to have a disease that mainly kills older people than people of all ages".

This!

I wanted to say this in my opening post, but thought people would think me even more heartless, which I'm not.

It would be so much worse to lose babies and more children to coronavirus.

Objectively, life expectancy in developed countries has increased hugely in the past few decades and a lot of that is because we have got good at keeping very frail and unwell people alive. From a purely medical perspective yes, those people are on “borrowed time” and it’s no surprise or shock when they die, whether from covid or anything else.

Emotionally however, I have close relatives who are frail for one reason or another and it would certainly be a big shock to me if they die.

The most common cause of death for elderly people in care homes is pneumonia

Yes. Pneumonia is known as “the old person’s friend” because it is often the final cause of death for someone who has such poor health that they have no quality of life.

If there's one good thing that can come of this pandemic I hope it's that we can start talking more pragmatically and compassionately about end of life. I've had to watch two grandparents literally beg doctors to let them die. That experience doesn't leave you - my mum still has never gotten over watching what her mum went through. We can't go on like this.

My DM is in a care home with Covid symptoms. What's tough is we haven't seen her for 5 weeks as the home has been locked down. We don't know what the outcome will be, but its different to normal times when we would have been weekly visiting and then if she was in decline much more,. My DDad wont be able to visit as he's in the shielded group