Are we wanting immortality?

[MsHeffaPiglet]

It's sad that people in care homes have died.

Does it matter whether they died because of cornavirus, rather than a general infection, from a fall, from a stroke or a heart attack or just old age?

If you are 80, 85, 90 or 95, isn't waking up each day a blessing. Does someone of that age expect or want to live forever?

I understand that you want to spend the last moments with loved ones and that is the cruellest thing with coronavirus and the need to isolate from everyone.

However, I just don't understand the shock, horror at the fact that elderly people in care homes have been affected so much. Is it so surprising?

Have you read the thread? Apart from the op, as I have found it interesting. My dad was 70 when he died after a short illness, my mum died at 60 - so I have no experience of being a 'child' having to make decisions for a very frail, elderly parent. All I have is observations of others.

I should add, of course, that I'm sorry for what you and your family are going through - and anyone else bereaved just now. No matter wat the circumstances, bereavement is a really difficult journey.

'It's sad' is glib and means the OP doesn't give a toss.

The fact that people in care homes might die anyway is not a good enough reason to dismiss their lives as nothing.

Not everyone dies surrounded by loved ones though
Dying surrounded by people, especially loved ones, would be the last thing I'd want. Much better for me to die alone, or with a nurse, than have some awful death bed scene.

Don't be a dick. KenDodd. What you want is not what everyone wants.

But how many actually get the bed scene. When my Nan died my Mum was only allowed in to visit during visiting hours and when she did get the call to come at 6am it was too late

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, a lot of people seem to die when relations leave the room for a few minutes. My FIL spent his final few hours with a procession of relations traipsing in and out, I have no idea why it was permitted, and would not be something I'd want for myself. That was almost a year ago, sadly we are now at the opposite extreme. (If it is OK to say sadly).

@user2323232323

What you want is not what everyone wants.
Oh, thanks for telling me that. It's a good job the world has clever people like you going around pointing out the fucking obvious.

Ir's a shame the world has twats like you in it. But there we are.

My dad died last week from coronavirus at the age of 80. I didn't get the memo that I shouldn't be shocked at the sudden death of my dad, not to mention the horrendous experience afterwards. Not being able to see him, no proper funeral, rushed burial the next day. It felt so undignified. He was very involved in his local church for years and they wouldn't even let his coffin through the door for a funeral service.

If he hadn't contracted the virus he probably would have had a few more years. The whole thing is compounded by the fact that my mother has terminal cancer. We were prepared for this to happen to her in the near future, but not dad. He has just been snatched away in an extremely cruel manner. So no OP, I very much take issue with your post.

Honestly this thread is horrible. The women in my family tend to live with all their marbles until late 90s. So yes if my mum died at 80 I would be very upset. Because that would be too young for her.
My great aunt was still moving furniture around her flat by herself in her mid 80's, Not all 80 year olds are barely alive.

And I agree this site gets more shocking by the day. I am honestly beginning to understand how the Nazis got away with it. All you have to do is persuade people that some peoples lives are not important and do not matter.

I agree OP, so many people can’t face the inevitability of death (at any age). Each day is a blessing for all of us, whatever our age. I find this thought uplifting and promoting gratitude for my life, not morbid.

@cantory I dont think its about saying that one life is better than another because of age, or that age doesnt matter. I thought it was about accepting though that there is no guarantee as much as we like it or old age. There are factors at play certainly but old age is a privilege and not a right. There is no too young for anyone.

DH paternal grandmother came from a long line of women who lived a long time (she herself was 95 when she died) her DDs though died at 74 and 66 of cancer.

My Nan is the opposite a 95 year old in a family that traditionally went earlier.
On the other side my uncle blamed my Nan for my grandad going before his time of a heart attack - he was 85!

I think what this thread should be trying to say is we have lost sight of the fact that getting to old age is an achievement not a right. For any of us

The horror in this though is for those left behind with no clear map of how to grieve in these strange new times

Of course living to an old age is not a right, having the conditions to allow us to potentially live to an old age should be a right in a rich country.
Things happen. My friend died of cancer in her forties. Not everyone reaches old age.
But this thread is not about that. This thread is about saying that it does not matter old people in care homes have died of covid 19 when in most cases those deaths were totally avoidable.
Care home staff not given proper PPE, elderly people discharged to care homes with symptoms of covid 19 and not being tested. This was neglect and not thinking old peoples lives mattered.
It is disingenuous to pretend this is about anyone thinking old people are immortal.

@Cherrycee I am so sorry about your father, and that must be extra tough with your mother being terminally ill. Its very hard.

So sorry for your loss, Cherrycee

littlejalepeno

So sorry for your loss.

And yes, the resonances with other time periods and dominant beliefs towards the vulnerable and elderly are there for anyone who cares to look.

Very sorry for your loss, Cherrycee.

Ws the OP written by Dominic Cummings?

I do find it strange that these eugenicists who think it's no big deal if old people die en masse are never so keen for their own elderly to be offered up this way.

Stanley Johnson has run away (against Government advice) to hide in his second home in the country. He isn't taking his chances in a London care home with no PPE.

But Boris hasn't insisted his dad return to his main London home like the rest of us have to.

And just to add the bleeding obvious, that it's not only old people in care homes being killed by the virus.

I personally know of a 48-year-old who died of it recently.

Should we all be happy with young people dying of the virus, as they're not immortal?

Just for some balance, old friend's beloved dad died last week from COVID at home. Her elderly Mum was there and he had what she and siblings call a 'good death'. Paramedics gave palliative treatment and he died entirely peacefully. I completely understand the distress about care homes having worked in one, in terms of the trauma for staff and residents not being visit-able. But endless use of 'gasping'/'suffocating' ( someone on MN said we would all be crawling and suffocating in supermarket car parks at one stage) is not a fair representation of how this disease affects all people. My friend feels his death from COVID was a great relief as he had endured months of agitated dementia and multiple physical disabilities with a terrible quality of life and lost dignity, at 85. She actually does use the word 'sad' to describe how she and her siblings feel. My elderly mother is philosophical about her own risks from COVID and that pneumonia was called something like 'the old man's friend', but is accepting that she could die from it. I don't think 'sad' is an offensive word for everyone, and many conditions end lives in a distressing way. My friend died from cancer at 50 and even with hospice care, it was hideously prolonged and painful. So we just need to be careful about whipping up how much worse COVID is as a way of dying, the care home environment and isolation notwithstanding.

@cantory my point is that right to have the conditions to do so is something that has only appeared in the last 50/60 years.

No one is immortal for most of human civilisation we walked hand in hand with death from the moment we were born. That stopped and we starting seeing living until a good old age (and that suddenly seems to be 90) in comfort as a right
That is why this has shocked us to the core because it takes away all that we have worked towards and really emphasised how vulnerable we actually are.

And because of this we are finding the whole thing far harder to navigate that previous pandemics. For all of our 21st Century developed world tech we can’t fight this any better than before. But perhaps you are right it for a different thread

That is separate to the mess the Government has made over PPE

That is why this has shocked us to the core because it takes away all that we have worked towards and really emphasised how vulnerable we actually are.

No, I'm with cantory:

This thread is about saying that it does not matter old people in care homes have died of covid 19 when in most cases those deaths were totally avoidable. Care home staff not given proper PPE, elderly people discharged to care homes with symptoms of covid 19 and not being tested. This was neglect and not thinking old peoples lives mattered. It is disingenuous to pretend this is about anyone thinking old people are immortal.

That's what is shocking.

@Quartz2208 It is not that long ago in the west poor children went out to work full time and often did dangerous jobs. Do you also think that means that we are unrealistic thinking our children should have an education no matter how poor their families are?
Things have changed enormously in the last 100 years. 100 years ago antibiotics did not even exist and my CS would have died when he broke his leg and had an open fracture. These days painful but routine surgery and after care means he is fine.
We are a rich country. Older people matter. The fact that the government ignored them and thought it did not matter if care homes did not have enough PPE, or if people were discharged back into care homes with covid 19 inevitable spreading it to other residents, just shows how poorly our society treats anyone older.

@janeskettle thank you and @Cherrycee I’m sorry for your loss, my mum also has terminal cancer and we were preparing the same way as you. I wish you both all the best.

And @cantory 100% agree with your posts. We should judge ourselves by how we treat the most vulnerable in a time of crisis, not start reasoning and distancing ourselves as to why some deaths are more acceptable than others.