Are we wanting immortality?

[MsHeffaPiglet]

It's sad that people in care homes have died.

Does it matter whether they died because of cornavirus, rather than a general infection, from a fall, from a stroke or a heart attack or just old age?

If you are 80, 85, 90 or 95, isn't waking up each day a blessing. Does someone of that age expect or want to live forever?

I understand that you want to spend the last moments with loved ones and that is the cruellest thing with coronavirus and the need to isolate from everyone.

However, I just don't understand the shock, horror at the fact that elderly people in care homes have been affected so much. Is it so surprising?

Do you love anyone who is old enough to be in a care home op? Death is always said when it is someone you love and care for. Where is the limit?

What about a terminally ill 14 year old? 'Was always going to happen".

Heartless thread.

I agree that the news coverage is masking the reality of a lot of care homes and we need to seriously reconsider how we do end of life care. I have a family member in a care home with advanced vascular dementia. The whole situation is just awful. She was once an award winning author and is now permanently confused, afraid and upset. Seeing her and all the other elderly people in the same situation in that home is just heart breaking. Covid is now in her care home and there's a small part of me that wonders if coronavirus is preferable to another decade of the suffering she's experiencing right now.

My grandparents are in their 80s and 90s. If they suddenly died from coronavirus that someone had brought in and they suffered unnecessarily without far less care than they would've got before the pandemic, I would be very upset for them.

My mother died in a Care Home on the Liverpool Care Pathway, which basically means she died of starvation.
She had severed dementia, and her brain gradually shut down, until she could no longer swallow.
At age 99, there was no other option, but at least I could sit with her on her last days. (not that she knew me, or was conscious, and she did not know who I was before she went into the home).
I dont think this was pleasant either.

My parents and ILs are all dead now - of them all, the one who was 18 months in a care home getting more and more dependent and confused had the worst ending. The ones who reached a point of feeling they'd really had enough, fully compos mentis, and then rather rapidly succumbing to eg pneumonia (which one of them was wont to call "the old man's friend" honestly had the kinder deaths. We've known a few old people who seem to have decided 'enough is enough'.

Obviously every single person is an individual, some people in care homes (and elsewhere) are dying before their time and that's a tragedy. But for many it's more like existing, beyond having the will to die. If you don't know what I mean by that be glad you've not seen it.

@milveycrohn that sounds unbelievably awful. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

What's the cut off OP? When is old, old enough? My Mum died in a care home in January from dementia aged 72. She was by no means the youngest resident.

When they all die very quickly and painfully from a horrible breathing disease, you don't think that's different to dying peacefully in their sleep of more natural causes?

Babyllama pneumonia (whether caused by cv or some other bacteria/virus) is a natural and very common cause of death for a very frail elderly person.

Someone on another thread talked about loosing the 'less productive' in society as possibly better than allowing the Coronavirus to damage the economy and kids education.

It is a slippery slope to place a value on life. When societies have allowed that in the past it has almost destroyed humanity. A far greater cost than a crap economy and a year of lost education imo.

My dad at 84 was completely independent, walking dog, dancing club, swimming, partner etc. He ended up in a care home after a heart op went wrong and died within 6 months. People said 'oh but he was in his 80s in a care home '

I think shock is an issue with any death.

My mum was 86 and frail when she passed away. Immediately after l couldn’t stop shaking.

Even though it wasn’t unexpected, l was still in shock for about 3 months.

I have experience of a very close family member with dementia. Horrendous and sad time before they passed away a couple of years later.

Evry

I think I agree OP, but I'm aware it's not a popular opinion.
Probably coloured by my own parents not living into their 70s if I'm honest.

Oh well @SpeedofaSloth if your paretsdidnt get to enjoy their 70s clearly no one else should either. Wonder whether you'll change your tune when you get there.

I think I agree also OP.

I have been wondering what it is acceptable to die from?

Before anyone points it out, death shouldn't be premature or painful, I know that.

I get what you're saying Op but it's hard to word it without sounding hard. Death is a taboo subject for most. It's feared, even when a person has no quality of life. People don't discuss death or even prepare themselves for elderly relatives dying. Therefore a common reaction to grief is shock and anger and wanting to blame someone.

A lot of Illnesses, for example flu, in the very elderly often develop into pneumonia (swelling of the respiratory tissues, lungs filling with fluid). This is the same as the complications of corona virus in the vulnerable elderly. To gain some perspective, the death rate in England and Wales for 2018 (pre pandemic) was 541,589 deaths.

I agree with pps, the lack of ppe and treatment (even palliative) in care homes is shocking and woefully underfunded.

My father in law is in a care home. He has a limited life expectancy but we would be devastated if he passed away now when he hasn’t been able to see his loved ones for weeks, nor they him. I imagine that’s true for most care home residents and their families.

I do understand the point OP is making to an extent though - very sadly, care home residents die at high rates, and therefore the figures for deaths would need to be placed in context against expected deaths for care home residents. I’ve not seen this done yet.

Regardless, the elderly deserve dignity and respect and not to be abandoned at a time like this.

Maybe it sounds harsh, but it seems some may have forgotten that death is a part of life and everyone will die eventually. There is a huge panic over the daily death toll, as we don't see the numbers who die each day from other causes.

Three of my grandparents died in their 60s from cancer, so maybe it's given me a bleak view of things.

Regardless, the elderly deserve dignity and respect

Even in normal circumstances, this is often denied them - through absolutely no fault of the care or medical staff. We're not allowed to respect many people's wishes for a dignified and painless end.

But how many do just die peacefully in their sleep? Isn't that a myth to help relatives feel better?

My nan lived to 99, her last 5 years in a care home. Her death lingered, she had dementia, no quality of life, various falls and when she was actually dying it lingered on and on.

If I were religious then I'd have prayed for her to die. It may sound callous, but it would have been kinder.

When my mother was 89 what she really wanted was to be around to be 90!
Of course it matters how people die. Statistics rule a lot of things - knowing how many died of this or that is important. What would be even better to know is if any person who had died with coronavirus is if they died because of it or not - was it incidental or contributory? What was the common underlying cause if there was one?
Age, sex, race, underlying conditions are all major factors in chances of whether one recovers or succumbs, and knowing anything increases the ability for best treatments and cures.

My uncle died from corona last week. He was 80 and in hospital to have a cancerous tumour removed, the operation was successful and the surgeon said that they expected a full recovery. On entry to hospital he tested negative for corona but died 2 weeks later after being at home for over a week and tested positive. On the face of it he was vulnerable, an 80 year old with a cancer diagnosis but he was much more than that. He was active in his community, enjoyed foreign holidays with his wife and had lots of living ahead of him. We will never know if he would have made a good recovery without corona but it’s wrong to think that everyone over 70 or with underlying illness is at deaths door.

I agree with those saying that the care home system needs to be overhauled. Parents of school aged children know how viruses, colds etc spread through such places. It's no different to care homes. What contingency measures did they put in place?

Also, care homes are businesses who pay their staff minimum wage whist charging residents, their families or local councils huge fees.

As private businesses, why didn't they prepare and get all the PPE in place for staff and residents? Why are they looking to the government for handouts?

We all need to look at and strive for quality of life over longevity for longevity's sake.

Really sorry to hear that Irwell.

As a society we are shielded from death.
My nan's generation were surrounded by it.

Poverty in back to backs, high infant mortality rates, contagious diseases (plural) with no vaccinations, poor sanitation.
And a war and subsequent starvation and recession.