Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Are we wanting immortality?

400 replies

MsHeffaPiglet · 22/04/2020 18:26

It's sad that people in care homes have died.

Does it matter whether they died because of cornavirus, rather than a general infection, from a fall, from a stroke or a heart attack or just old age?

If you are 80, 85, 90 or 95, isn't waking up each day a blessing. Does someone of that age expect or want to live forever?

I understand that you want to spend the last moments with loved ones and that is the cruellest thing with coronavirus and the need to isolate from everyone.

However, I just don't understand the shock, horror at the fact that elderly people in care homes have been affected so much. Is it so surprising?

OP posts:
waveafterwaveafterwave · 25/04/2020 12:33

Death is painful. Even if people die in their sleep they are still dying of something. If an old person dies of coronavirus is it really more tragic than if they had died of cancer, pneumonia or a stroke?

Mittens030869 · 25/04/2020 12:40

@YappityYapYap I agree that it would have been a horrible death. I found it really scary to be gasping for breath, but I was strong enough to keep going. I also wasn't alone; my DH was advised by paramedics (who didn't come out in the end) to lie me on my tummy and enable me to cough or puke as required.

The worst moment was when my DH thought I was asleep when I was in fact struggling to breathe but was unable to communicate that to him. The paramedics therefore assumed that I was asleep and therefore breathing all right.

There have also been people have died at home and alone, because they were unable to call for help. Or during the night because they were self isolating.

We obviously don't know what happened with the elderly people in residential or nursing homes. But I worked in those places in the past, and they always seemed very alone, especially those who had no visitors. And now none of them are being visited by relatives, even those who were used to receiving visitors. Those of them who have dementia won't understand why. It's completely horrific however you look at it.

Mittens030869 · 25/04/2020 12:41

It's the aloneness that's horrific more than the cause of death. There needs to be some flexibility on this issue, I think.

1300cakes · 25/04/2020 12:53

Death is painful. Even if people die in their sleep they are still dying of something

Its been said before that when we say someone 'died in their sleep', what we usually mean is 'they died in their bed at night'. Unless someone was sitting there watching them we actually don't know whether they just slipped away painlessly or died horribly unable to summon help!

Mittens030869 · 25/04/2020 13:10

If they died in their sleep at a residential or nursing home, they would have been checked upon hourly. I used to do night shifts sometimes, and this was standard when the residents weren't dying of a pandemic.

It's more of a horrible thought with people who are living alone at home.

LangClegsInSpace · 25/04/2020 13:55

Someone a couple of pages back said - When I read the head of the WHO saying that half the covid19 deaths were in care homes was an 'unimaginable human tragedy' I thought, have you not been around and actually seen a fair few things, like many millions of children dying from preventable causes e.g. diarrhoea/starvation each year?

Well, he's from Ethiopia, what do you reckon? Hmm

1300cakes - But people of all ages are dying daily of many things, including preventable causes like starvation. And we don't care about that. Well we care - but not enough to do anything, report on it daily or discuss it on this forum. We just accept that sometimes shit situations happen and people die.

So I guess that's why the WHOs speech rang a bit hollow to me.

In a recent press conference WHO talked about what it meant to lose the funding from the US (approx $450M/year). They said 4/5 of the lost funding is for things like immunising children, the polio eradication campaign and long term essential services and trauma management. A lot of that funding is aimed at direct life-saving services to people in the most destitute circumstances in the world.

They have repeatedly spoken about their fear of this disease taking off in low income countries which don't have well functioning health systems and countries that have been blighted by years of conflict. They don't know yet how it will affect younger populations suffering from malnutrition and/or with high rates of untreated HIV. If you think the situation in care homes is bad, wait til it hits the vast refugee camps around the world. Wait til it takes off in Yemen and Syria. DRC has cases now. They are still also battling ebola and measles. There are cases in East Africa where they are also dealing with the worst plague of locusts for decades.

Coronavirus comes on top of all the rest of the human misery in the world.

Most countries in Africa still only have a few imported cases and are still able to do the necessary case finding, isolation, contact tracing and quarantine in order to contain this clusterfuck. They are not using fancy apps, they are trecking miles, going from house to house, frequently while being shot at. Many countries are used to this work because they have faced, and continue to face, wave after wave of deadly communicable disease and they don't have the luxury of allowing any of these waves to just burn through slowly because they already don't have a health system that can cope. And neither do they have economies that can cope with lockdown.

Everyone was screaming at WHO to declare a 'pandemic' but I haven't seen western countries spare much thought for anyone beyond their own populations and their own health systems. In the UK we responded by just giving up, scaling back testing, abandoning contact tracing and deciding that 'flattening the sombrero' was good enough. Because we have that luxury (although I still think it's far too high a price to pay).

As a result we will remain a reservoir for this disease and a constant threat of reinfection to low income countries who could contain this if it wasn't for our complacency and who absolutely cannot afford not to contain it.

When you say 'we don't care', or 'We just accept that sometimes shit situations happen and people die.', you speak for yourself.

changemind · 25/04/2020 14:37

Hmm idk cartoongiraffe although there are reports of chicken pox like rash with covid

TheyDressedMeUpLikeThis · 25/04/2020 22:43

I think we are fast approaching the tipping point where we realise the cruelty being inflicted on people by isolation is worse than their increased chance of death.

Tedros Adhanom should resign. Everything he says going forward will be treated with derison and suspicion by a lot of people. If the WHO wants to regain any sense of credibility it should start there.

Amboseli · 25/04/2020 23:22

@ellanwood, I agree with every word you have said. I'm in exactly the same position as you, have had a lovely life and have done so much, if I died tomorrow it certainly wouldn't be a tragedy, even though I'm not yet 50. DH and the DCs would of course be affected but I have always tried to live for today as nobody knows what's around the corner.

LangClegsInSpace · 25/04/2020 23:47

Tedros Adhanom should resign. Everything he says going forward will be treated with derison and suspicion by a lot of people. If the WHO wants to regain any sense of credibility it should start there.

Can you explain why you think this?

TheyDressedMeUpLikeThis · 26/04/2020 00:19

Because the perception is that the WHO (and in particular Adhanom) has been and is in China's pocket and were asleep on the job.

Whether that is the reality or not doesn't actually matter at this point. If the WHO want people to listen to them now, they need to show that they are aware of this perception and are taking steps to address it.

A full investigation can be conducted later. For now, he is a weak spot and they cannot afford weak spots.

LangClegsInSpace · 26/04/2020 00:55

Because the perception is that the WHO (and in particular Adhanom) has been and is in China's pocket and were asleep on the job.

I don't know what 'the' perception means. If it's your perception then own it and explain why you think that. It's not my perception.

Do you have any evidence to back up your assertions or are you just parroting things you have heard from fans of the orange man who recently suggested it would be a good idea for people to inject themselves with disinfectant?

I am in no way uncritical of WHO. I think their tobacco and vaping policies are fucking shocking. However I've been listening to what they have to say about this virus since the beginning of March and I have looked at what they were saying and doing right back to the beginning of January when they were first alerted and I can't see what they are supposed to have done wrong.

Furthermore they have consistently talked far more sense than our own government and we would have a much smaller death toll if we had followed their advice.

So of course it matters.

TheyDressedMeUpLikeThis · 26/04/2020 01:12

This shitstorm is happening now, the world needs a WHO it trusts. From what i have observed the world does not trust the current WHO. China applying pressure to the EU also adds to the perception that they are able to achieve results.

Emotional reactions and excited Trump references won't change that I believe that a lot of the world has lost trust in the WHO.

I about am not sure what I believe about the WHO's actions. But I AM sure about the large group of people who are wondering just what the fuck happened there.

I would not normally think that the baying mob should be listened to. But in this case, it is the baying mob that is being asked to curtail it's freedom. How willing do you think they are going to be to take instruction/lectures from a man/organisation they hold at least partially responsible for the problem? "Not very" is my response.

If Adhanom is still Director-General of the WHO by the end of this year I will eat my hat.

What something looks like is as important right now, as what it is IMO.

Remove Adhanom, replace him with someone who has some credibility and sort it all out later.

LangClegsInSpace · 26/04/2020 01:16

He hasn't done anything wrong. You're just adding to the baying mob.

TheyDressedMeUpLikeThis · 26/04/2020 01:18

Perhaps, I can live with that.

TheyDressedMeUpLikeThis · 26/04/2020 01:24

"WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus reiterated the body's advice was not to impose travel or trade restrictions on China, saying such measures could cause "fear and stigma"." www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-05/who-coronavirus-update-china-travel/11930752

Tell me again how he has done nothing wrong? That looks pretty wrong from where I am sitting. In Australia, which ignored this pressure and who has some of the lowest numbers right now.

It was a fuck up. It may have been an unavoidable fuck up. But if the WHO wants people to listen to what they have to say they need to change something, fast.

janeskettle · 26/04/2020 05:34

Hear hear, LangClegsInSpace

LangClegsInSpace · 26/04/2020 15:34

Long post alert!

TheyDressedMeUpLikeThis - WHO walk a tightrope when it comes to international travel advice. They can't make any country do anything and they can't force any country to cooperate. The only weapon they have is diplomacy.

During the SARS pandemic in 2003 WHO did advise travellers to 'consider postponing all but essential travel' (not quite the same thing as advising travel restrictions) to some areas, starting with Guangdong Province in China and Hong Kong on April 2nd, almost a month after they issued a global alert. They never issued this travel advice for China as a whole or any other country as a whole.

At the time, China was not putting in place any containment measures and was not sharing much information with WHO at all. China did not even permit WHO to go to Guangdong until April 2nd and it was not until after this permission was granted that WHO issued their first travel advice for the region. It took until late April for mainland China to start shutting down restaurants, bars and clubs.

After SARS, WHO received lots of praise for how they had handled the pandemic but countries were worried that in future disease outbreaks they might themselves be the subject of travel advisories, which of course have a major impact on economies.

In 2005 they updated the International Health Regulations - a legally binding (but unenforceable) international law which states what member countries and WHO must do to prevent and respond to to the international spread of disease.

The purpose and scope of these Regulations are to prevent, protect against, control and provide a public health response to the international spread of disease in ways that are commensurate with and restricted to public health risks, and which avoid unnecessary interference with international traffic and trade.

www.who.int/ihr/publications/9789241580496/en/

Article 17 of the IHR says:

When issuing, modifying or terminating temporary or standing recommendations, the DirectorGeneral shall consider:
...
(d) health measures that, on the basis of a risk assessment appropriate to the circumstances, are not more restrictive of international traffic and trade and are not more intrusive to persons than reasonably available alternatives that would achieve the appropriate level of health protection;

Article 43 says that member states can independently implement additional health measures, however:

Such measures shall not be more restrictive of international traffic and not more invasive or intrusive to persons than reasonably available alternatives that would achieve the appropriate level of health protection

and ...

3. A State Party implementing additional health measures referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article which significantly interfere with international traffic shall provide to WHO the public health rationale and relevant scientific information for it. WHO shall share this information with other States Parties and shall share information regarding the health measures implemented. For the purpose of this Article, significant interference generally means refusal of entry or departure of international travellers, baggage, cargo, containers, conveyances, goods, and the like, or their delay, for more than 24 hours.

Further paragraphs say WHO must assess the provided rationale and supporting evidence and if not satisfied they 'may request that the State Party concerned reconsider the application of the measures.'

So this international law, agreed upon by all WHO member states, is very clear that restricting travel should be a last resort when no less restrictive alternatives are available and should be based solely on a public health rationale, backed up by scientific evidence. It's not something you do at the first opportunity, just in case.

If countries fear restrictive travel advisories they are less likely to report outbreaks of disease. If travel advisories are issued without a solid, evidence based, public health rationale then countries are less likely to cooperate and WHO can't make them.

Coming back to the current covid outbreak, Hubei was quarantined on January 24th and by the end of January pretty much the entire country was already on lockdown and anyone travelling in or out of China had to fill in a health declaration and provide their details so they could be traced.

On January 24th, when there were 11 cases outside China, WHO advised all countries to start temperature screening international travellers on entry and also on exit from countries with ongoing community transmission (just China at the time).

www.who.int/news-room/articles-detail/updated-who-advice-for-international-traffic-in-relation-to-the-outbreak-of-the-novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-24-jan

By February 1st, when Australia banned travel from China, there were already cases in 23 countries outside of China. Unlike China, these countries were not in lockdown and most had no detection or containment measures in place, including exit screening at airports.

So while a travel ban on China might have seemed like the obvious thing to do, it doesn't make much sense because that horse had already bolted. The main threat was no longer coming from China because they were already under severe restrictions. The threat was from the 23 other countries. It's difficult to see any public health benefit from Australia's travel ban and as such it's not consistent with the International Health Regulations.

Australia has certainly managed to contain this virus better than many countries but it would be better to look at the entire package of measures they have introduced in order to find out why.

After all, the US also introduced a travel ban on China from January 31st. That's going well.

okiedokieme · 26/04/2020 15:46

I do get what you are saying, it's the reality that most people in care homes are in the last months maybe 2-3 years of their life, it certainly would be a blessing if dnannas lot was up, she hasn't known her own family for nearly 10 years. But care homes cover a wide spectrum of people so we mustn't just assume they are all life limited. They deserve excellent care, but no I'm not surprised they are catching covid 19

changemind · 27/04/2020 13:06

Come on there are better ways to live out your final years.

changemind · 27/04/2020 13:06

That could be you one day.

Quartz2208 · 27/04/2020 14:49

@changedmind if you live a long long time its a harsh hard process. I had at the start of the year 2 Grandmothers one 89, one 95. The 89 year old died a month before her 90th at the end of January in a process that took 3 very long weeks. Before that though she was too well to go to a care home and instead was in retirement flat.

Its an interesting point though as to whether they mean care homes or retirement communities. My 95 year old is in a retirement village it isnt a care home

Care homes are the last resort so it really does depend on what they mean

XingMing · 27/04/2020 16:55

DMIL has been in a care home for about eight weeks. She's nearly 91, has been widowed for 10 years and has advancing vascular dementia and a heart condition, with other, less chronic conditions. DSIL has been brought close to breaking as she tried to juggle care, food deliveries, laundry and cleaning as well as full-time work in the NHS, for an increasingly ornery parent who refused to get up, wash, dress and who, when challenged, could be extremely unkind and rude.

Care became the only reasonable option as we live 300 miles away. We have been relieved to know that DMIL is being fed, helped to bathe and dress, and kindly looked after in a tiny residential care home, especially since the lockdown. I think she can still be very awkward and difficult when she's crossed, and I know she would be mortified if she knew at 70 how she would behave at 90.

Fortunately she didn't, and equally fortunately, she has enough to choose a nice CQC-outstanding home, rather than being assigned to any random unit with space. But I don't think she's all agog waiting to see what enjoyment tomorrow will bring. But Quartz is right that it was a last resort.

littlejalapeno · 27/04/2020 17:08

Ok OP, so you’ll be off to dignitas the second you turn 70? Having just lost my DFIL to Covid, who contracted it in hospital after a minor op, I find your comment callous.

Did you ever see that film “life is beautiful” about the Italian family in a concentration camp? Your comments reminded me of the dinner conversation at the beginning where the Fascists are bemoaning how much money the elderly, infirm and disabled cost the state.

Food for thought for you I think.

littlejalapeno · 27/04/2020 17:11

I mean yeah, care homes are becoming death camps for the vulnerable. OP says it’s “sad”. Perhaps try stretching your imagination or emotional range?

This site gets more and more shocking by the day.

Swipe left for the next trending thread