Are we wanting immortality?

[MsHeffaPiglet]

It's sad that people in care homes have died.

Does it matter whether they died because of cornavirus, rather than a general infection, from a fall, from a stroke or a heart attack or just old age?

If you are 80, 85, 90 or 95, isn't waking up each day a blessing. Does someone of that age expect or want to live forever?

I understand that you want to spend the last moments with loved ones and that is the cruellest thing with coronavirus and the need to isolate from everyone.

However, I just don't understand the shock, horror at the fact that elderly people in care homes have been affected so much. Is it so surprising?

I think its something like, if you are over 80 you have a 10% chance of dying within the next 12 months.

Of course people in care homes die all the time. But some homes have reported losing 10 plus patients within a couple of weeks. That is not normal.

I've noticed a lot of people talking in terms of people dying a horrible "painful death" and that these elderly frail people should be taken to hospital. Unfortunately I have seen a lot of people die. I have been to more funerals than weddings! Pneumonia symptoms, breathing can become quicker and very shallow. I have had this myself. It feels as though you can not get air in ,as though there was nowhere for it to go. If it becomes very bad Hypoxia can result, you also can not push out the CO2 so you become confused and lose conscienceless. I have seen many people die in this way and it is peaceful. Lots of elderly die every year from pneumonia. Of course many people with Covid-19 have experiences fatigue, and pain, and some stomach problems too which have been painful. In all likelihood the Virus will go for the area of weakness, in the elderly that is going to be heart and lungs. So, I should think many will die fairly quickly, not having the energy to cough to try and clear it, and it will be relatively peaceful. Death is not great obviously but it is inevitable.

I also think its inevitable, I have seen some fairly horrendous ideas about infection control. Staff will be pushed for time as they always are. These places run on staff shortages at the best of times. Stocks of PPE will have been low at least at the start.

The other factor is dementia. How can you make people with dementia who might still be ambulant and physically agile social distance, wash their hands and put their hands over their mouths when they cough? Its hard enough to get them to sit down and eat cakes, drink tea, have their medication, wash or bathe and get dressed, let alone expect......I have seen so many filthy bedraggled bodies shuffling about, its like watching Zombie nation. I do though think Euthanasia would be kind. I can't remember the percentage of care home residents over 80 with dementia, but in my experience it will be most.

Do care home staff also catch pneumonia from residents in normal times? Are they expendable too?

My elderly fil fought till the bitter end to stay alive. Mil and my mum were much more peaceful and my sil took her own life. None of this is nice but it's life and we are all born to die.
It's sad this virus will take people before their time and that is hard to deal with.

End of life care for elderly people could do with a rethink but the whole euthanasia debate isn't ever taken that seriously and always voted down in parliament. It's a big subject.

This is a really interesting thread OP. I agree, we are not encouraged to think or talk much about death and as such as a society we do have an odd attitude towards it. Anyone who has had a loved one die before their time will probably recognise the strange reactions of those around them who absolutely do not know what to say or do.

I have seen both my parents die, one in their 50's and one at age 70. They were not peaceful deaths. I had 2 Grandfathers in care homes with dementia, it was absolutely awful and although a death from COVID would not be a nice one, neither was their existence in a care home and when it finally came death was a blessing (I am not saying this is the case for everyone). People do end up dying of something, that is a fact. What is sad about this pandemic in care homes is the families that don't get to hold their loved ones hands and say a last goodbye. I also worry about the stress this will put on the underpaid and overworked staff who may not have the training or support to deal with the amount of deaths and distressed relatives.

Someone upthread mentioned being a bit hardened to this as they'd lost their parents before their 70's, I can totally relate to this feeling. It is sad that this is going on but I am also grateful that it is not causing the deaths of young and middle aged people at the same rate, although any death is very sad for the families affected. I think my outlook is possibly a reaction to having spent a lot of time thinking about life and death and always carrying with me the knowledge of my own mortality. I wish as a society we talked about it more and could be a bit more prepared for death as it is the one thing we can't escape an experience of.

By several means. My own mother's path was stroke, then aspiration pneumonia. This isn't uncommon. Sometimes the starting point is a fracture, followed by immobilisation, then pneumonia

Yes of course. So whilst it’s very sad, the idea of pneumonia killing care home residents is not unusual or particularly shocking considering it’s the most common cause of death for that demographic already.

Saying it’s not shocking doesn’t mean you don’t care or that you don’t find it sad for their relatives. But the idea that if it wasn’t for covid all these care home residents would be passing peacefully in their sleep with no health issues is an absolute myth.

I was talking about this very topic with DH earlier. The sad fact is that those in care homes are there as they are unable to live at home any more. It is tremendously sad that people are dying on their on without their loved ones around them, but unfortunately that's how this horrible virus works.

I feel more strongly for the poor care workers on minimum wage contracts and likely high level of exposure to the virus who should have a good chance of recovery but feeling forced to work through illness and worried about self isolating, even less PPE than NHS workers and no free Dominos pizza for them.

I think at a minimum government needs to prioritise getting really good PPE into the care homes.

My DF is in his late 90s. He wants to reach 100. We all accept that he might not. But failing to reach 100 because he has been written off, not had treatment available which in other circumstances would have been appropriate, is not acceptable.

Just because other older people might not wish to continue, might find life in a care home intolerable, does not mean we should forget that older people are individuals, and simply assume that they will all die soon and that it doesn't really matter if they get COVID19 because they'd get something else otherwise.

Ageist tripe. Have a few

my cognitively intact grandmother in her mid 80s went for a big but potentially curative cancer op a few years ago.

She was never offered a dnar. She had been too polite to raise the issue herself, but she had no doubt what she would have wanted. She wanted to carry on living but on her terms. I think when you've gradually lost ever more friends to frailty and dementia you have insight into these things and know the limits to modern medicine.

Someone on another thread talked about loosing the 'less productive' in society as possibly better than allowing the Coronavirus to damage the economy and kids education.

That is absolutely fucking disgusting, and where do you stop because the 'less productive' doesn't necessarily just mean elderly. You could argue the same about anyone that isn't a net contributor so anyone on any kind of benefit, stay at home parents, lower paid workers.....

What if the all important kids end up in one of those groups when they grow up, should we be happy to sacrifice them too? Or is that different because they weren't meant to be the people that were thrown under the bus, and when 'we' said that 'we' didn't mean our children, just old people.

I really hate people at the moment

Personally I think we keep people "alive" far too long and for selfish reasons.

We don't do it for their benefit we do it because we don't want to let go.

I have elderly loved ones. I don't want them to die. But they are going to.

I don't fear death. I fear being trapped in a body/mind that is far past it's ability to sustain itself. My mother is in her 80s and is the same. She has made her decisions and formalised them. There will be no care home, no life extending treatment. She does not want it.

Maybe it is time have a proper look at what the actual people concerned want. Not how their families feel about it.

I know what you mean op, it was my beloved grandmas worst outcome going into a home she hated the idea of them. Thankfully we managed to keep her in her own home with a carer for 8 months with modern medicine keeping her alive. She was 85 and existing not living.

At the end she died warm in a hospital bed with all her family around her, in fact she sat up and gave the best speech ever.

Those poor souls in nursing homes, don’t even get to have their families with them. No dignity in death.

Pneumonia is developed not caught

I agree TheyDressed

Whether we agree with you or not OP you are right. For those who worry about lack of oxygen fof people who die in care homes- this has always been the case and appropriate medication can be prescribed to alleviate symptoms.

Death is a fact of life and I would much prefer to go after a short illness than a slow decline

My mother is in her 80s and is the same. She has made her decisions and formalised them. There will be no care home, no life extending treatment. She does not want it.

It isn't always a choice. My mother is in a care home as she cannot look after herself and neither can her family. It's not a question of her having "life extending treatment" though - she is incapacitated, not terminally ill, and there is a big difference. I cannot see any way she could have avoided the care home short of euthanasia.

I know what you mean OP. I kind of think that a couple of weeks of sickness followed by death is not a bad way to go compared to some of the alternatives (eg dementia, chronic pain, loss of dignity). After all, we all have to die of something.

I don't want to die drowning in my own lungs It's not helpful to describe a very common cause of death (as someone has mentioned- pre covid) in the frail and elderly in this way. It's sensationalising something that is a highly probable cause of death for all our elderly relatives. Whether the lung inflammation is caused by covid, any bacterial infection or a common cold.
Elderly patients can lose consciousness and simply stop breathing with pneumonia. It's not a given that it will be a long agonising death.

I agree, elderly in care homes of course deserve treatment, pain relief and palliative care.

Why is shocking... because ...

The sheer number of residents dying in a small time frame 12+ in 10 days. This isn’t ‘normal’ or to be expected in a care home of maybe 45-47 residents.
Due to barrier care being needed, staff can’t be as close as they normally are in these situations.
The sheer number of residents falling ill simultaneously means care can I be as compassionate as you would like.
Residents have been denied seeing their families for weeks in the hope of protecting them from covid19 - then to have them die if that disease is heartbreaking for all, and for staff makes it seem all their hard work was for nothing.
Care homes locked visitors etc out of homes for weeks, only to have covid19 tested patients sent to the home from hospital, into homes that were previously covid free. All the hard preventative work just went straight out of the window. Knowingly bringing covid 19 into a covid free home is so sad and could have been prevented by using specific home to only take covid positive hospital releases. Yes any member of staff could accidentally bring it in .. but somehow that does feel different.
Families are unable to grieve in the normal way.
The fall out for carers having to deal with this is immense as is the stress that they may take the disease back to their own families.
So yes, care homes expect death, just not on this scale in this way.

My grand was in a care home and taken into hospital at 96. She told me she was tired and couldn't be bothered and that she wanted to 'go'. I figure if I get to 70 and had a good healthy(ish) life then I'm lucky.

I think my main concern is dying in pain. Struggling for breath must be horrendous - I don't know if morphine would help at the end?

Personally I think we keep people "alive" far too long and for selfish reasons.

We don't do it for their benefit we do it because we don't want to let go.

I agree and I think that's what's driving many of the reactions we're seeing.

My gran died of a stroke, she was 86 and had a life of hell for 4 months before it finally took her. I think COVID would be preferable by far.

When they all die very quickly and painfully from a horrible breathing disease, you don't think that's different to dying peacefully in their sleep of more natural causes?

Don’t think that many people die peacefully in their sleep these days do they. It’s how we want to go but not that many actually do

@DuesToTheDirt indeed, so people should make their choices while they CAN.

This situation has prompted me to do so.

I don't want to die drowning in my own lungs either. I want to drift off on a cloud of drugs that makes me feel relaxed.

Euthanasia means at its base a "good/easy" death.

We need to reassess end of life care. The current approach in most western countries is cruel.

In my opinion the real horror of coronavirus is that people are not getting to be with their loved ones as they die.

But some of the people who are dying in care homes could have a few more years seeing their children and grandchildren. Usually you just don't know how much time an elderly person has left. My DH's DGF had had bad asthma from childhood and he wasn't expected to live to adulthood. He had emphysema in later years as well. However, he defied the odds and lived to the age of 91.

The blasé attitude towards the deaths of elderly people and those with health problems is very sad IMO. At the very least they shouldn't end up struggling for breath because of COVID-19, or have to die with no loved ones able to visit and offer comfort (as well as giving themselves closure).