Are we wanting immortality?

[MsHeffaPiglet]

It's sad that people in care homes have died.

Does it matter whether they died because of cornavirus, rather than a general infection, from a fall, from a stroke or a heart attack or just old age?

If you are 80, 85, 90 or 95, isn't waking up each day a blessing. Does someone of that age expect or want to live forever?

I understand that you want to spend the last moments with loved ones and that is the cruellest thing with coronavirus and the need to isolate from everyone.

However, I just don't understand the shock, horror at the fact that elderly people in care homes have been affected so much. Is it so surprising?

I dont think the the OP is saying they should be waiting to die more that we seem to think that reaching our 80s/90s is a right and it isnt it is a gift and one which we should treasure whatever age we are.

Because the one constant is death and we live with a risk of dying all the time - this just magnifies that

My Nan went from having an enjoyable and lovely Christmas to by the end of January having died spending 2 weeks in hospital and wasnt treated

Pneumonia used to be called the "old man's friend" because it had a habit of carrying off older people in a relatively painless way. Given that COVID causes pneumonia, I wonder how much that relates to the deaths of those who are already weak (and don't have much capacity to struggle for breath in the first place).

I have, on a few occasions, had cause to visit geriatric wards. They are not pleasant places; I was in my late teens at the time and rapidly came to the conclusion that it was entirely possible to live too long, and that in some cases death can be a blessed release.

I've got a very elderly relative (late 90s) who thrives on social interaction and pre-COVID was still going out alone on her mobility scooter to the local shops, cafe etc. She's now cooped up at home, struggling to enjoy life, her eyes aren't good enough to read, the internet is beyond her, her fingers aren't good enough to do art or play music as she used to. It's really sad - I wonder if she will see the other side of lockdown. If something physical doesn't get her, I fear she will just give up because she has nothing left to live for

If (when) she goes, it will feel like a shock to the system, and I will be very sad, but it could hardly be described as a surprise at her age.

There is no doubt that both of them love being alive and love spending time with their DGC

Of course there are old people who love their lives and that's a great thing. But as a serious question - would we rather die 5 years "too soon" of coronavirus or live 5 years "too long" in a care home with dementia? Because that really is what we're talking about. It would be great to die peacefully in our sleep at just the right moment but the chances of that happening are vanishingly small. Personally I would rather die "too soon" than put myself and my family through the trauma of me slowly losing my cognitive faculties.

They aren't all just sitting around hoping to die and I find the insistence that everyone past the age of 70 is, rather disturbing.

I don't think anyone here is insisting any such thing.

I have worked in residential and nursing homes, so I'm not saying that all elderly people have happy lives. The DH of one of my closest friends has Alzheimer's in his early 60s, for him the prospect of living to 80-90 years old would be very different from what it can be like for someone who remains campus mentos and can enjoy life to the end. It isn't just about age,

@AvocadosBeforeMortgages my mum told me not to visit my Nan on her ward. She said that it was best for me to remember her at Christmas rather than see her and she wasnt really able to see or remember anyone. Being with her at the end was more for my Mum rather than for my Nan who had pretty much gone awhile before her body gave up.

My (other) Nan is also the same 95 and now stuck in one room with carers who rush in and out. She was already finding life tough as she is nearly fully blind and deaf. She was in intensive care when she was 79 and she fought like anything to stay alive - she has already said that the next thing she wont fight she is ready to see my Granddad

They aren't all just sitting around hoping to die and I find the insistence that everyone past the age of 70 is, rather disturbing.

I have seen posts here and elsewhere on MN effectively suggesting that they're better off dead, that their lives are inevitably miserable.

Also this that I quoted earlier
They may have a ‘sweet’ old grandparent whom they visit from time to time and who actually protects them from the indignities and troubles of old age by putting on a brave smile and pretending to enjoy life.

They aren't all pretending to enjoy life. Many elderly people actually do enjoy life. The quality of life for the elderly varies hugely, as is true of us all, they are individuals, and not everyone has a miserable existence in their later years. Some are very content.

@AllPlayedOut of course they arent better of dead but the reality is the more with live the greater the chance we have of dying so that by the time we reach 80 the chances of dying that year.

I started 2020 prepared for the fact that the chances of me reaching the end with both grandmothers alive (at 89 and 95) were slim. By the end of January it had happened

@AllPlayedOut of course they arent better of dead but the reality is the more with live the greater the chance we have of dying so that by the time we reach 80 the chances of dying that year.

Obviously the older we get the more likely we are to die, but that isn't what I'm arguing. My point was that not all elderly people are miserable and hoping to die. Many still enjoy their lives in spite of the deterioration that old age brings. Yet some people seem to think that they are all miserable and that there can be no joy in life or point in living once you're elderly.

My parents are in their eighties, incredibly fit, well and active. No underlying conditions. But their life is great because they travel, dine out, go to the theatre and, most importantly, see family. They're absolutely keeping to lockdown-but they're struggling.

It'll be a long time til a vaccine programme is ready. They accept that they may die with the virus ( more so than the rest of us in the family are accepting of their risks) they've lived a long and satisfying life. They've seen too many friends and peers suffering a long, difficult and undignified decline because of degenerative conditions like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.

@Allplayedout. That poster was talking about nursing home residents who aren't 'allowed out'. She said she knows people in their 70s living independently that are going out regularly.

If we're talking about nursing home residents being forced to stay in their rooms then yes, I find that disturbing too, and I don't think it's sustainable or humane for it to continue for much longer but at present I'd struggle to see an alternative.

My fil died a couple of years ago, a few weeks after he had seen most of his children and grandchildren at a family wedding. He had had bypass surgery 25 years older and was 87.
Dh was shocked, he thought his dad had a few more years to go. The siblings spent hours discussing the fact that fil had eaten some porridge, bus was refusing yoghurt. They fully expected him to get better and leave hospital. It was really difficult to convince dh that an 87 year old with multiple organ failure and heart problems might not be 'having a few tests'.
I'm in Ireland where the over 70's are 'cocooning'. A few weeks ago they were gardening, golfing, doing meals on wheels, going to the men's shed, meeting friends and family for lunch. I am worried about their mental health. And physical health if they don't feel they should 'bother the doctor'.

@Emeeno1

Quite. I am reading Wolf Hall, which is set in the sixteenth century, in part during the 'sweating sickness' epidemic.
Many of the measures taken to stay safe are similar to the ones we are doing now. Such as families staying at home.
Although absolutely tragic, contagious illness and death are, unfortunately, nothing new.

@Yorkshirelass04

My grandad would've said "shortness of breath", that what everyone ultimately died of in his opinion.

@Wolfgirrl

I do agree OP. It is the same among the smokers and the morbidly obese. They've been staring mortality in the face for years yet theres sudden panic now it's a virus threatening them and not, say, a stroke. The number of posts I've seen saying 'I am morbidly obese and so scared of catching the virus'. Whereas the thought of a heart attack didnt faze them hmm

Get back in your bloody box.

I'm diabetic I'm obese I have high blood pressure.

My Dad died of a heart attack.

You have absolutely no fucking idea how terrified I am if dying of Covid.

You also have absolutely NO fucking idea how terrified I am if dying if a heart attack

OR. - what's more - the absolute hell I go through trying to lose weight, keep my diabetes & HBP under control

People like you just see FAT and judge, whilst knowing jack fucking shit. I was 7.5 stone until I got sick, fit as fuck. Don't kid yourself that the rest of your life will go to plan.

I agree @AmelieTaylor. It’s all coming out now exactly what people think of obese people. Not pleasant.

all other countries are protecting their elderly, we have left ours to die. i dont understand it really

all other countries are protecting their elderly, we have left ours to die.

What is being done significantly different in which other countries?
There have been lots of deaths in care homes in other countries too.

Medication can also cause obesity.

we have left ours to die

No need to talk in hyperbole. The country aren't leaving elderly to die, quite the opposite.

With regards to elderly in care homes, it isn't realistic to think the virus could be kept away from them. That would be impossible.

The death rate in residential settings is very high in Ireland too, and the USA. The flu jab is administered every autumn to prevent seasonal flu leading to similar - this time there is an infection with no vaccination.
I read somewhere this virus likes dry membranes, and older people have drier throats, so it takes hold.

AmelieTaylor sorry to be blunt but your illness (diabetes & HBP) is directly linked to your weight.

The truth is hurtful, but unless you accept it, you will always be a rabbit caught in the headlights, to scared to make the first move into a healthy life.

It's high in various other European countries too. It would be surprising if this wasn't the case.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/half-of-coronavirus-deaths-happen-in-care-homes-data-from-eu-suggests

I agree. My mother is 80. She has dementia and is in a care home. Three people have died there. Would it be a tragedy if my mother were to die - no. Of course it would be sad, but her quality of life is awful, she doesn't know who she is, where she is, and each day she is suffering.

Further, the care home had to lock each resident in their rooms for 14 days, owing to Covid, to try and minimise the spread. Frankly, locking people with dementia in their rooms is far more cruel than letting nature take its course. I can't bear to think of my mother, climbing the walls, not knowing or understanding why she couldn't leave her room, for two whole weeks. It's barbaric.

Lockdown is not sustainable. The fall out (economic, social, mental health) is vast. The idea of being locked down for months or years, until a vaccine 'may' be found, is unworkable.

I am thinking many elderly are dying now of loneliness. Somehow that thought makes me much more sad when I think of my granny who also lives in a carehome.