Are we wanting immortality?

[MsHeffaPiglet]

It's sad that people in care homes have died.

Does it matter whether they died because of cornavirus, rather than a general infection, from a fall, from a stroke or a heart attack or just old age?

If you are 80, 85, 90 or 95, isn't waking up each day a blessing. Does someone of that age expect or want to live forever?

I understand that you want to spend the last moments with loved ones and that is the cruellest thing with coronavirus and the need to isolate from everyone.

However, I just don't understand the shock, horror at the fact that elderly people in care homes have been affected so much. Is it so surprising?

I’ve watched elderly family members go through the same thing over and over again. They’re fine, maybe a few aches and pains or chronic conditions well managed with drugs, but basically fine. Then something happens, maybe a fall or an illness which requires a spell in hospital, and we talk about how they’re going to get better and get back to their old life, but they never quite do, they get maybe 75% better. Then another thing happens which erodes a bit more of their health, then another and another and each time we paste on a smile and say when you’re better we’ll do x or y, but we all know this is it, there is no better. Next comes carers or nursing homes, and possibly dementia and their quality of life and confidence and dignity is all but gone.

People don’t want to talk about this, they want to imagine happy, well old and enjoying life and finally dying peacefully in their sleep, and I’m sure that happens sometimes but it’s never happened in my experience. The end has always been awful and made worse by the knowledge that their final months were a mental and physical pain for them.

I know that I’d rather have 75 to 80 good years and then go. I don’t want the slow decline, just before she died my grandmother, who was in her 90s and generally not given to philosophy, to me to “never get old”, and one way or another I don’t intend to.

When my grandma was in hospital I had a long chat with one of the health care assistants looking after her. She was telling me that often what she hears from elderly patients is very, very different from what the family hears. She said she's had many older people in tears saying they just want to die before putting on a brave face ready for the family visit. I'm glad we are finally having these conversations as our fear of letting go is creating so much unnecessary suffering for older people. I wonder if, in future, we will look back on this period of time and wonder how we got it so wrong.

@BarkandCheese I do agree with you. I suspect that my DM secretly would prefer the idea of dying when out working in Africa, rather than a slow decline, which she would find very hard. She's left instructions as to what to do if that happens and that becomes ever more likely to happen every year when she goes there.

@ozark in Spain they literally were left to die
Belgium at the moment has the highest death per million rate because they account for all care home cases
This is a Europe wide issue

I think death is just still such a taboo subject and many are terrified of it.

Based on MN, there are numerous young, fit people lying awake at night terrified of COVID and going to extraordinary lengths: washing all their food with soap, milton or bleach not leaving the house for weeks on end, quaranting mail, panicking because they walked by someone smoking or because someone 2 metres away spoke to them or someone ate crisps sitting on a bench.

Failing to see anyones cirumstances but their own and becoming enraged because someone 'broke the rules' because PEOPLE WILL DIE.

Whenever I think i've seen the most extreme measures, someone soon pops up with something even more jaw dropping. So many people seem to be living in unecessary and unsustainable terror.

@BarkandCheese. That rings so true for me.
Added to that are the effects of dementia. So many people who haven't looked after an older person seem to think you just get 'alzheimers' or 'jolly rosy cheeked granny enjoying life to the full'.
There is a whole raft of awfulness in between which people who aren't there every day just wouldn't notice - because as a pp said, a brave face is often put on for families, and in addition it is easy in the earlier stages - especially for people who have been very high-functioning in earlier life - to mask dementia, which feeds into the loop of hiding illness, lack of self care, recurring hospitalisation etc. And anyone who has spent time visiting elderly wards will have experience of how awful they are so sending old people to hospital is not some kind of panacea meaning that they will bounce back home refreshed and ready to go.
The way we insist on not letting go is awful and absolutely must be discussed (along with a general discussion about the right to die).

@TimeForChange123 What you're saying is so true. What I find is that there are 2 extremes, which are both wrong. One extreme panics about COVID-19 and is terrified of dying of it or if their parents or grandparents dying of it. The other extreme rants about the lockdown and human rights; there's a conspiracy thread that's live right now.

Obviously the thing to do is take proper precautions and not put other people at risk of catching the virus as far as possible. Other than that, just get on with your life as best as you can under the circumstances we're facing right now.

In the early days of this one elderly poster said that she would do her duty and stay in - not particularly for herself but to prevent spread and being a drain on NHS resources - but felt that in return the elderly should be given more options around choosing their end of life date, rather than preserving life at all cost.

My GF lived to be 99, but aged 92 was involved in a serious car crash. He was never the same after the accident and lost most of his mobility and quality of life. My uncle had always lived with my GPs, but basically had no quality of life for those 7 years as he was unable to leave GF on his own and some other relatives claimed carers allowance, although didn't seem to do any caring.

Slightly off on a tangent there, but I can't see any alternative to prioritising medical response those who have the most viable chance of survival.

I have two friends who had elderly parents in nursing homes a few years ago.
One of them had a father who was incapacitated from a combination of Parkinsons and strokes, and had 'turned his face to the wall', I'm not sure if that is an Irish expression. He was old, ill, dependent on other people for everything. His daughter knew that he wanted to die, and that he was telling her mother that, she visited every day. He eventually died, and it was sad for his family. He had been lovely man.
My other friend had a mother whose main problem was osteoporosis, she eventually lost her ability to swallow. The care home and her family agreed to insert a peg feeding tube, and she was moved to hospital. The hospital staff decided she was too frail for surgery and she died a couple of days later. The family were devastated - she had made a journey by ambulance, been admitted to hospital, been examined, discussed, and finally died there for no real purpose.
I would actually worry more about the effects of moving and intubating very frail elderly than leaving them in a safe, familiar environment. But I think the staffing and private ownership of homes run as a business should be examined.

My DMIL's older sister - active until her late 80ties (think soup kitchen volunteer etc.) - suffered a stroke and when she realized she would not get better (bedbound and with no speech). She stated that she would die and from then on refused food and drink.
Her family respected her wishes and pallative care was introduced and she died in her home sourrounded by family.
Doctors tried tried to dissuade her.

(She was religious had made her peace and did not fear death.)

Doctors tried and tried to dissuade her.

I have huge respect for doctors but I do think these kinds of attitudes need to change. When my grandma was in her final days she was determined she didn't want anymore treatment and wanted to be allowed to die. The doctors and nurses were ignoring her, running tests and giving her antibiotics while she was saying "No no no! Stop!". In the end she said "if you don't stop now I will come back and haunt you!". They left her alone after that and she died the following afternoon. I'm so proud of her for sticking up for herself and doing it on her terms.

I think death is just still such a taboo subject and many are terrified of it.

I think it's a very natural and universal human fear but I do agree that some take it to an extreme. It doesn't help that people on MN keep perpetuating myths about it though, like the idea that everyone dies in agony which is false. The majority of people, at least those in with access to healthcare, will not die in terrible pain. Yes some do and that is horrific and unacceptable and we need to continue to improve palliative care and care generally, and part of that is prioritising quality over quantity, but most people do not suffer terribly at the end.

Both my grandmothers made their late 90s. Watching them at the end of their lives has made me damn sure I don't want to live that long.

It's not as simple as the quality of their lives either, my maternal Grandmother was still active and liked to go out/socialise/host family until fairly close to death but she hated watching everyone else around her die. She buried 2 husbands, her eldest son, her son in law, her sister, her brother in law, her neice, her brother, her sister in law and all of her friends. My paternal Grandmother never got over losing her son (my dad) and her twin sister. My last memory of her is her crying on my dd's head about the fact that she was sat there holding her whilst my dad never got to meet her. She would have switched places with him in a heartbeat. In the end she essentially committed suicide...had a stomach ulcer which burst and she refused to seek treatment for. When she was finally rushed to hospital, they asked why and she said she was ready...didn't want to out live anyone else.

My maternal Grandmother died in March. It was distressing yes but hardly a surprise.

This is a very thought-provoking discussion.
Upthread there was a comment that "these people could have had more years with their children and grandchildren".

But in reality, whilst almost everyone is glad to have grandchildren, don't old people face tremendous pressure to pretend that seeing/having grandchildren is somehow "enough" to justify their continued life when in their heart of hearts it just isn't.

So is the "we could have had more years with granny and her with us" argument selfless? or maybe a bit selfish if granny is actually suffering more in order to put on a brave face.....

I adore my children but wouldn't want to be forced to pretend I wanted to carry on living just so they felt adored (once they are adults, I mean).

I think with doctors it could be that they're so often blamed unfairly for patients' deaths, and they don't want to be accused afterwards of not doing their best to save them. It must be a very hard call for doctors, I wouldn't want their job.

@andhessixfeetten

That was certainly true of my DH's DGF in the 2 years after losing his only DC (my FIL) in a car accident and then his DW 3 months later, who, I'm sure, died of a broken heart. He really did just want to die at that stage. We visited when he could in his residential home, and he was always pleased to see us, but he really didn't want to be there anymore. It was heartbreaking.

I think 'turned his face to the wall ' is one of these Celtic sayings as it's used in Scotland.

Modern medicine has achieved so much that I think it has lulled us into thinking it can solve everything and this virus is a sharp wake up call that it can't. I've heard horrendous stories of medical staff getting abuse because they can't save a patient,

It is so important for families to talk about this. We've talked about what we want to happen if we 'die well' ie in a car crash or similar who want's to be an organ donor and who doesn't. What we want to happen if we become terminally ill, And as my father slipped further away from us we talked about when we wanted him admitted to hospital from the care home

Turning your face to the wall is the next step from taking to the bed.

"That was certainly true of my DH's DGF in the 2 years after losing his only DC (my FIL) in a car accident and then his DW 3 months later, who, I'm sure, died of a broken heart. He really did just want to die at that stage. We visited when he could in his residential home, and he was always pleased to see us, but he really didn't want to be there anymore. It was heartbreaking."

That's a sad story Mittens. I think he had a right to decide that his meaningful life was over and it's good that you respected that.

My husband's grandmother was very fond towards and kind to our kids but she'd say things like "may you never know what it is to [use walking aid/not be able to do xyz".
For me to suggest that she ought to have wanted to live longer just to see my kids' little faces would have been the height of vanity and purely for my own benefit and convenience.

Sometimes I think of all the "human rights" we have and I imagine going back to Greek or Roman times and explaining them.

They would have been utterly horrorstruck at the idea that you couldn't end your own life at the time you felt it was right to. For them that was the most basic "right" and so it was denied to slaves.

I agree sixfeet I don't know what the answer is but I find the personal anecdotes on here of people's elderly ill relatives suffering in advanced age, their loss of a voice and any dignity, more heart breakingly sad than news stories reporting deaths in care homes.

It's a really difficult issue of quality of life. I think doctors can within reason respect a patient's wishes for no further intervention, DNR orders, preferred care. Unfortunately, advanced dementia patients are incapable of communicating those decisions.

To go back to the OPs question about whether the cause of death matters, whether it matters that covid is spreading through these homes, I think one thing the govt will be considering is that these homes are not fully isolated. The same way covid gets in, it will get out, and if care homes are a huge cluster of infection that will make it harder to bring wider transmission rates down to a level we can sustain/suppress without going back into lockdown.

@TimeForChange123

Couldn’t agree more.

These daily updates don’t help. What changes in 24 hrs? Hardly anything. Same comments from the panel, same questions from the Journo’s, same answers.

I’d be quite happy to see this go back to every few days or even weekly. We all know nothing much is going to change for the next few months so why do we need reminding every day.

• Sometimes I think of all the "human rights" we have and I imagine going back to Greek or Roman times and explaining them.

They would have been utterly horrorstruck at the idea that you couldn't end your own life at the time you felt it was right to. For them that was the most basic "right" and so it was denied to slaves.*

Is it a weird side effect of the Christian idea of an afterlife? Suicide was, I've read, made illegal because too many people found the idea of heaven more attractive than their unpleasant lives.

@ErrolTheDragon

That's an interesting thought, especially considering it's actually the exact opposite of what RC church dogma has taught historically. Suicide was considered a mortal sin, hence people known to have committed suicide were denied the dignity of being buried in 'consecrated ground', which was a matter of shame for the family.

It's only in the last century that we've seen the connection between suicide and mental illness, and I'm glad to say that most church denominations have come to understand this. And the law has moved on as well, thankfully.

This is also the reason why assisted suicide is still illegal in this country