Are we wanting immortality?

[MsHeffaPiglet]

It's sad that people in care homes have died.

Does it matter whether they died because of cornavirus, rather than a general infection, from a fall, from a stroke or a heart attack or just old age?

If you are 80, 85, 90 or 95, isn't waking up each day a blessing. Does someone of that age expect or want to live forever?

I understand that you want to spend the last moments with loved ones and that is the cruellest thing with coronavirus and the need to isolate from everyone.

However, I just don't understand the shock, horror at the fact that elderly people in care homes have been affected so much. Is it so surprising?

@twoHopes I can completely see where you are coming from and I do think that’s an aspect many - younger - people can’t seem to grasp. Although yes there’s the other side of the coin in that if every 70 plus goes out and gets it then the NHS will be stretched caring for them, preventing others who might benefit from treatment perhaps more than they would getting treatment.

But yes, lots of older people are realistic about death. They don’t want to live forever in the same way that those younger do. People love their elderly relatives and want them around, that’s normal, but age isn’t nice. Things stop working the way they should but inside you don’t feel any different (in your head). It’s depressing and frustrating- I am nearly 40 and I have chronic serious health conditions. I want to live as long as I can now for my young children but at 70 / 80 plus who knows. Maybe I won’t want to live to 80 if my body is giving up on me more than it is now.

I’ve seen my Mum in a nursing home for people with severe dementia. The kind of people who are so lacking in their own awareness they remove their clothes at every opportunity, spit and scream, poo in the middle of the crowded living room, try to escape thinking people are going to kill them, scream out for stillborn or dead children they had in their youth thinking they’ve just died (all true stories). Who wants that?

To spend months or years locked inside to avoid coronavirus is torture to many older people. No wonder they won’t abide by the rules.

@Inkpaperstars

I suppose the link I was trying to make (being I was half asleep- still am actually 🤣) with cancer, was simply there are situations where I feel it’s so sad, it’s tragic.

These are things that affect me emotionally and I can sit feeling somber at the though of a 42 with 3 kids not being able to get an appointment for a lump she’s found. Or to get a smear early enough due to no staff or limited resources.

I was meaning I just can’t feel the save level of sadness to hear 80/90 have died of covid.

Someone phrased it more eloquently than me up thread (a couple of pps did actually) they explain why keeping people alive simply because they can isn’t always the most appropriate thing to do.

@Bagelsandbrie I agree that the suffering experienced by some elderly people in care homes is so cruel. My partner's grandmother is in a home and every time we visit she asks where her husband is. He died years ago. We then have to decide whether to lie to her or to tell her (again) that he has died. Imagine having to find out your husband has died over and over again for the rest of your life. It's heart breaking.

One thing which is appalling is that it should have been obvious for months that care home staff (as well as the NHS) should have appropriate PPE.
But, they're on budgets. Caring for very infirm people is expensive and labour intensive.

My DMIL - 95 this week - has been praying (loudly) for delivery these last 4 years. She is physically healthy, her organs work, but old - all her friends and most of the relatives she shared her life with are gone. She is no longer able to enjoy the things she used to enjoy. She needs a commode and help with all aspects of self care.
Last week she had to move into a care home, though we wanted to fullfil her wish to die in the flat she grew up in. The level of care she needs could no longer be organized.

I have set up a savings account for dignitas or sth, though I hope to drop from my chair at 84 like my DDad and DGM.

OP you absolute wind-up merchant

No, absolutely not. It's an important conversation which needs be had, and I hope this pandemic does lead to further discussion about end of life wishes and euthanasia.

I have had experience as a student nurse of elderly care homes, mainly with severely mentally infirm patients, and I know it's a cliche but it's so true to say you wouldn't keep a dog alive in the same situation. Elderly people who are distressed, doubly incontinent and demented have little or no quality of life, and it is inhumane not to recognise this.

A close family member suffered with Alzheimer's and it was a blessed relief when she died last year after prolonged suffering - physically and mentally.

OP I completely agree with you.

@Prok I watched a documentary once about people turning 100 and all but one of the ones that were stiill compos mentis said the same. Friends/family (often including their children) dead, not able to see or hear well so can't even enjoy TV, radio or books, not able to do the things they wanted, often (or always in pain) etc

I feel a lot of people who write about the ‘shame’ of not giving the elderly the same respect as the young are very young themselves and don’t really know anyone old or sick. They may have a ‘sweet’ old grandparent whom they visit from time to time and who actually protects them from the indignities and troubles of old age by putting on a brave smile and pretending to enjoy life.

If you have seen anyone dying or know anyone who was once fit, healthy and full of life but is now confined to four walls (even before corona), struggling with daily living and in terrible fear of losing this little bit of autonomy and going into a home, you will know that the concept of prolonging life, regardless of quality, is not what most old people want.

I don't see how anyone who has seen a variety of deaths of people they love would fail to realise this is a serious discussion.

Yes, it's a cliche about dogs but there are dozens of threads on the Doghouse boards each year, hundreds of posts where everyone who loves their dogs knows 'better a week too soon than a day too late'. That may not translate exactly to humans, but many people are kept alive weeks, months or even years 'too late' for their happiness.

People should be encouraged to think clearly about what they do and don't want, and those wishes should be respected.

I would absolutely rather die than live with advanced dementia, the thought of being an ongoing burden to my family is awful, we need a better system of living wills being seen as thing right thing to do etc.

I watched a documentary once about people turning 100 and all but one of the ones that were stiill compos mentis said the same

My grandma lived to 101 and didn't want to celebrate her 100th birthday saying she "never wanted to live that long". I knew she'd had enough when we went for a pub lunch and she didn't order any dessert (sugary sweet things were her favourite) as she said it was too much effort trying to eat it. She was so arthritic, blind and deaf by the end she had nothing to live for. She told me she woke up every morning cursing the fact that she hadn't died in her sleep.

I agree OP.

My grandmother had dementia and stopped eating and then drinking, but her body cruelly kept on going as she was physically healthy. It was heartbreaking to watch.

You have my agreement OP.

I agree op.

My grandma has just passed away in her care home with none of us with her. That side of it is heartbreaking.

She had dementia she was 94 and died peacefully in her sleep after having a stroke a couple of weeks ago. However she was tested for covid and was positive but that did not cause her death. She basically died of old age.

But she will go down as one of the statistics of dying in a care home with covid 19.

I agree with OP. Why is it any different for younger people to die alone in hospital from Covid 19 than older people in Care Homes? Why must older people be pitied for it? Those who are older have lived their lives and of course the NHS should concentrate on treating younger people.

I agree with you OP, I do think that a high percentage of elderly people are passing on simply because their "time is up".

But I also think the outrage is not simply about corona, as Notmyrealname rightly said:
I don’t think people are shocked that old people are so affected by it. Isn’t it more the way they die - usually alone and usually without loved ones. And families not being able to grieve properly

thanks for starting this thread OP - it's really good and hopefully some people will have woken up a bit

I also agree OP.

I understand what you mean op. I know a few fit, healthy, busy people in their seventies and eighties who are having a difficult time being cooped up just now.
But being old and very ill, frail, or far into the dementia journey is very different.
My parents were fairly young when they died, I'm interested to see this has been mentioned by others as affecting their outlook, as I feel a bit hard hearted!

They may have a ‘sweet’ old grandparent whom they visit from time to time and who actually protects them from the indignities and troubles of old age by putting on a brave smile and pretending to enjoy life.

Many elderly people do enjoy life though. No pretence about it. Yes the quality of life for many elderly people can be poor due to various ailments and personally I wouldn't care to be elderly and very frail, but I wouldn't relish a poor quality of life at any age, but there are also a lot of elderly people who genuinely enjoy life and they aren't pretending to do so. I've worked in care, cared for an elderly family member and volunteered in care homes and hospices and their quality of life and happiness varies hugely. They aren't all just sitting around hoping to die and I find the insistence that everyone past the age of 70 is, rather disturbing.

I think not being allowed out if you are over 70 disturbing too, I know quite a few who are walking dogs and going for the paper.
But they aren't in nursing homes. My aunt spent 5 years in bed, not recognising her children, not meeting two grandchildren. Cancer finally took her. As I get older myself, I know of more people who have relations in similar circumstances. And the agreement is often there, we don't let pets suffer.

My mum died in hospital at 62. It was not a peaceful death.

she fought and fought. It was quite horrific really.

Whether these people die in hospital or a nursing home it is going to be horrible.

I think not being allowed out if you are over 70 disturbing too, I know quite a few who are walking dogs and going for the paper

They are allowed out. It's advised that they stay in but it isn't law. I don't blame them for wanting to go out either btw. I'd much rather enjoy some semblance of normal life and take the risk, life is one constant risk after all, than spend all my time cooped up indoors seeing no one and becoming increasingly depressed.

I am also in favour of euthanasia being allowed with strict guidelines and protections put in place. I don't think that anyone should be forced to live a life that they find intolerable, but at the same time I believe that people who do enjoy their life and want to continue doing so should be assisted to have as good a quality of life as possible and not just written off as waiting to die or better off dead.

They aren't all just sitting around hoping to die and I find the insistence that everyone past the age of 70 is, rather disturbing.

I agree. My 80 year old DM spends 2/3 months every year working in West Africa on her Christian charity work in Bible translation and literacy. She has so much energy and it's hard to remember her actual age sometimes.

Whereas my MIL, who is a year younger at 79, seems a lot older.

There is no doubt that both of them love being alive and love spending time with their DGC.

@Allplayedout. That poster was talking about nursing home residents who aren't 'allowed out'. She said she knows people in their 70s living independently that are going out regularly.