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Worried About Coronavirus- thread 38

991 replies

TheStarryNight · 18/04/2020 13:57

New thread

OP posts:
Thread gallery
51
changemind · 25/04/2020 21:11

Something about vessels being compromised by something immune related maybe

LilacTree1 · 25/04/2020 21:28

Apologies if this has been covered

Is it possible to get an accurate figure of deaths in recent days, I mean without the “we added on ones from Easter because blah blah”?

LilacTree1 · 25/04/2020 21:47

Quartz thank you

buttermilkwaffles · 25/04/2020 22:06

Interview with Prof Neil Ferguson on the UK strategy and criticisms of it and on the way ahead.

SistemaAddict · 26/04/2020 10:17

One silver lining to all this is that mum's friend will no longer be voting for Boris because she thinks he should have addressed the nation by video link during his recovery period. That'll be the framed photo of him coming off the mantelpiece then Grin It's all overblown according to her and she keeps telling my mum she can do x,y,z with no thought whatsoever to my mum's personal circumstances and health issues that put her at greater risk. I've not liked this woman since childhood. Very narcissistic and domineering. My mum always feels depressed and deflated after any contact with her but hasn't felt able to cut ties. She's one of those who has to have done everything you've done and done it better. If she hasn't done it then she dismisses it as insignificant. Broken your hip? Oh that's nothing! At risk of falls and major fractures? Just drive a few miles and go for a walk, there's nothing to stop you! Nevermind the associated risks if you fall and fracture something and the impact on yourself, your family, and the NHS and social care. She gives me the fucking rage!!
Sorry, as you were.

Oakmaiden · 26/04/2020 10:18

LilacTree bear in mind that the link Quartz has posted will not yet have accurate figures for deaths in the past week, as many of them haven't been reported yet.

lamplamplamo · 26/04/2020 10:25

That'll be the framed photo of him coming off the mantelpiece then

People actually do this? ShockShockGrin

lamplamplamo · 26/04/2020 10:26

I mean have a framed photo. Shock

SistemaAddict · 26/04/2020 10:42

Apparently so. I can't stand BJ but fully understand he needs to recover properly. She has no trust in the government now and doesn't believe anything we've been told about the virus.

lamplamplamo · 26/04/2020 11:09

My sister's FIL thinks Boris will sort it all out on Monday and release lockdown straight away because the Boss is back.

His wife has COPD too.

pocketem · 26/04/2020 13:03

Hong Kong is bustling. Everyone wearing masks but most shops open and people going out and about

Worried About Coronavirus- thread 38
pocketem · 26/04/2020 13:03

No new cases in Hong Kong for several days now

lamplamplamo · 26/04/2020 13:06

Interesting whats the Ro value down to?

TheStarryNight · 26/04/2020 13:14

How Latvia has led the world against coronavirus pandemic

Latvian prime minister Krisjanis Karins explains how the Baltic state took concerted action before citizens started dying of coronavirus

By
Edward Malnick,
SUNDAY POLITICAL EDITOR
25 April 2020 • 6:00pm
Daily Telegraph

It has been held up as an exemplar among nations attempting to tackle Covid-19. And, according to Krisjanis Karins, Latvia's prime minister, a key reason for the Baltic state's relative success in halting the spread of the virus so far, were the "very many" early steps taken by the government - before the first death from coronavirus in the country.

In an interview with The Telegraph, Karins also sets out how he has kept many shops and other businesses open as part of a balance struck between "keeping people healthy" and "doing the least amount of damage possible" to the economy.

In Latvia, shopping centres are only closed at weekends, and businesses such as garden centres, construction shops and opticians have remained open. Such an approach is coveted by MPs concerned that this country's lockdown risks permanent damage to the economy.

Karins, 55, a US-educated former businessman, insists that the country felt "ill prepared" when the pandemic began to loom, but it quickly began to increase its stocks of personal protective equipment for medics and its ability to carry out widespread testing of the population.

"The first person died in our country on April 3. And maybe that is one of the big differences, that we took very many preliminary steps, before we were seeing people dying," Karins says, in an interview conducted over Zoom, the video conferencing software now being used for a significant amount of government business. "And the second thing, [from] the very outset, we followed the epidemiologists. They are the ones giving the advice and we listened to them."

In the UK too, ministers have been at pains to stress that at every stage they have been guided by the advice of the experts. But Latvia declared a state of emergency over Covid-19 as early as March 13, a pronouncement which included a ban on all public gatherings of more than 200 people. At the same time, tens of thousands attended the Cheltenham racing festival despite warnings that the event could facilitate significant spreading of the new virus, after it was first recorded in Britain on Jan 31.

By the time of the first Covid-19 related death in Latvia, the limit on public gatherings had dropped from crowds of 200 to groups of two, and strict social distancing rules were in place.

"In retrospect we actually shut everything down, went to two people, and two metres, before we even had our first confirmed death of Covid-19," Karins says. But the majority of businesses were allowed to remain open, with the exception of cinemas and theatres.

Large shopping centres were instructed to close at weekends. Cafes and restaurants could, in theory, remain open, but following the introduction of social distancing rules many lacked customers and shut down anyway. "By not shutting down our businesses and having the social distancing, we're trying to get that balance of keeping people healthy and at the same time doing the least amount of damage to the economy as possible in these times. Of course, our economy is taking a big hit as everyone's economy is."

In comments that may resonate with Boris Johnson, Karins describes having had "ministers who wanted to go much further and ... ministers who said this is going too far. "But we found the balance because we had a common agreement that as politicians and as responsible government members, we will take the main cue from the specialists."

The guiding principles of Latvia's approach have been "testing, identifying, isolating", Karins says. He was contacted as part of the "identifying" strand last month, after it emerged an MP who was present at a meeting that he also attended, had tested positive for Covid-19.

"I spent 10 days in self-isolation, because at one of our coalition meetings, it turns out one of the members of parliament was sick with Covid-19. That was identified four days after a meeting. So we immediately went into self isolation for the remaining 10 days."

Karins adds: "That was early on ... in March. And, interestingly, we immediately had to hold our first cabinet meeting online because the majority of cabinet ministers were in the same room with the same person at the same time and we were contacted and therefore had to self-isolate. We have then developed very quickly, fantastic tools and procedures to effectively get our entire government working online."

On personal protective equipment (PPE), of which many countries are experiencing shortages, Karins suggests that Latvia began on the back foot, but says the country has now built up a three-month supply of basic kit. "We were not prepared or waiting for a pandemic. We felt when it started coming that we were ill prepared. But what we ramped up as quickly as we could was getting the personal protective equipment and getting that out to the hospitals.

We did that in a centralised manner, which was never done before. All hospitals, all doctors, traditionally they provide their own, but we needed quite large amounts in a very tough market. We had lots of failed attempts of trying to acquire equipment, whether the certifications weren't there, or there was actually a bogus company trying to sell it. But that was all, thank goodness, prevented."

While in the UK, the armed forces were called in to help solely with the distribution of equipment, in Latvia, the military have also been made responsible for purchasing and storing PPE. "We now have a system which is centrally coordinated, where actually our armed forces are doing the purchasing, the warehousing and the distribution," Karins explains. "They have a good infrastructure for doing this."

However, Karins, whose UK ambassador, Baiba Braze, has just been appointed as a NATO assistant secretary-general, holds concerns about the country's reliance on importing PPE from China. "Right now our largest purchases are all coming from China. I am not so certain that's actually a very good thing, considering these are primarily necessary items. I think that we really should be looking at the EU and also within the NATO space, that it's actually a security threat that we need to address and change in the future. It's going on now throughout the EU."

Latvia has now "tested somewhat over 2 per cent of our population" for coronavirus, with each positive case starting a domino effect of contact tracing in order to ensure that those who may be infected self-isolate for 14 days. Speaking before the 12th death from Covid-19 was reported on Friday, Karins pointed out that the proportion of cases in Latvia was significantly smaller than in many other European countries. The country's current death rate "would be like in the UK if less than 400 people had died. That is proportionately where we are. But we're not joyful about this."

Looks like “a stitch in time saves nine” worked for them, and in the future they want essential items manufactured at home or by a friendly country (with the “friendship” needed to be proved by binding international treaty).

OP posts:
Keepdistance · 26/04/2020 13:19

Theres a petition for mask wearing (though mn have deleted the post)
Its on the usualnpetitions site.

Masks need to be the exit strategy.
It clearly works quite well.
If people dont want to then they can be the ones tonstsy in (sen and young dc aside).
I dobt see why everyone else should be coughed on and have couging people touching the food we buy.
They arent even certain 2m is enough. And imo i caught something from a supermarket delivery person who was 1-2m away. But obviously breathing heavily wheeling the baskets.
Then on click and collect the tesco staff handed him the paperwork (eye roll)

TheStarryNight · 26/04/2020 13:39

What if Covid-19 isn't our biggest threat?

Andrew Anthony
The Observer, Sun 26 Apr 2020 09.00 BST

Experts who assess global peril saw a pandemic coming, but they have worse worries for humanity

When eventually the coronavirus crisis begins to recede and we return to an approximation of normality – no matter how socially distanced or how much handwashing it involves – we can expect some kind of international initiative to prevent, or at least limit, the spread of future lethal viruses. As a species we are pretty good at learning from recent experience. It’s what’s known as the availability heuristic – the tendency to estimate the likelihood of an event based on our ability to recall examples.

But as the moral philosopher Toby Ord argues in his new book, The Precipice, we are much less adept at anticipating potential catastrophes that have no precedent in living memory. “Even when experts estimate a significant probability for an unprecedented event,” he writes, “we have great difficulty believing it until we see it.”

This was precisely the problem with the coronavirus. Many informed scientists predicted that a global epidemic was almost certain to break out at some point in the near future. Aside from the warnings of legions of virologists and epidemiologists, the Microsoft founder, Bill Gates, gave a widely disseminated Ted Talk in 2015 in which he detailed the threat of a killer virus. For a while now, a pandemic has been one of the two most prominent catastrophic threats in the government’s risk register (the other is a massive cyberattack).

But if something hasn’t yet happened, there is a deep-seated temptation to act as if it’s not going to happen. If that is true of an event, like this pandemic, that will kill only a tiny fraction of the world’s population, it’s even more the case for what are known as existential threats. There are two definitions of existential threat, though they often amount to the same thing. One is something that will bring a total end to humanity, remove us as a species from this planet or any other. The other, only slightly less troubling, is something that leads to an irrevocable collapse of civilisation, reducing surviving humanity to a prehistoric state of existence.

An Australian based at Oxford’s Future of Humanity Institute, Ord is one of a tiny number of academics working in the field of existential risk assessment. It’s a discipline that takes in everything from stellar explosions right down to rogue microbes, from supervolcanoes to artificial superintelligence.

Ord works through each potential threat and examines the likelihood of it occurring in the next century. For example, the probability of a supernova causing a catastrophe on Earth he estimates to be less than one in 50m. Even adding all the naturally occurring risks together (which includes naturally occurring viruses), Ord contends that they do not amount to the existential risk presented individually by nuclear war or global heating.

Most of the time, the general public, governments and other academics are largely content to neglect most of these risks. Few of us, after all, enjoy contemplating the apocalypse.

In any case, governments, as former Conservative minister Oliver Letwin reminds us in his recent book Apocalypse How?, are usually preoccupied with more pressing issues than humanity’s demise. Everyday problems like trade agreements demand urgent attention, whereas hypothetical future ones such as being taken over by machines can always be left for tomorrow.

But given that we’re living through a global pandemic, now is perhaps an opportune moment to think about what can be done to avoid a future cataclysm. According to Ord, the period we inhabit is a critical moment in the history of humanity. Not only are there the potentially disastrous effects of global heating but in the nuclear age we also possess the power to destroy ourselves in a flash – or to at least leave the question of civilisation’s survival in the balance.

Thus Ord believes the next century will be a dangerously precarious one. If we make the right decisions, he foresees a future of unimaginable flourishing. If we make the wrong ones, he maintains that we could well go the way of the dodo and the dinosaurs, exiting the planet for good.

When I speak to Ord over Skype I remind him of the unsettling odds he awards humanity in this life-and-death struggle between our power and our wisdom. “Given everything I know,” he writes, “I put the existential risk this century at around one in six.”

In other words, the 21st century is effectively one giant game of Russian roulette. Many people will recoil from such a grim prediction, while for others it will fuel the anxiety that is already rife in society.

He agrees but says that he has tried to present his modelling in as calm and rational a fashion as possible, making sure to take into account all the evidence that suggests the risks are not large. One in six is his best estimate, factoring in that we make a “decent stab” at dealing with the threat of our destruction.

If we really put our minds to it and mount a response equal to the threat, the odds, he says, come down to something more like 100-1 for our extinction. But, equally, if we carry on ignoring the threat represented by advances in areas like biotech and artificial intelligence, then the risk, he says, “would be more like one in three”.

Martin Rees, the cosmologist and former president of the Royal Society, co-founded the Centre for the Study of Existential Risk in Cambridge. He has long been involved in raising awareness of looming disasters and he echoes Ord’s concern.

“I’m worried,” he says, “simply because our world is so interconnected, that the magnitude of the worst potential catastrophes has grown unprecedentedly large, and too many have been in denial about them. We ignore the wise maxim ‘the unfamiliar is not the same as the improbable’.”

Letwin warns of an overdependence on the internet and satellite systems, allied with limited stocks of goods and long supply chains. These are ideal conditions for sabotage and global breakdown. As he writes, ominously: “The time has come to recognise that more and more parts of our lives – of society itself – depend on fewer and fewer, more integrated networks.”

Complex global networks certainly increase our vulnerability to viral pandemics and cyberattacks, but neither of those outcomes qualify as a serious existential risk in Ord’s book. The pandemics he is concerned about are not of the kind that break out in the wet markets of Wuhan, but rather those engineered in biological laboratories.

Although Ord draws a distinction between natural and anthropogenic (human-made) risks, he argues that this line is rather blurry when it comes to pathogens, because their proliferation has been significantly increased by human activity such as farming, transport, complex trade links and our congregation in dense cities.

Yet like so many aspects of existential threat, the idea of an engineered pathogen seems too sci-fi, too far-fetched, to grab our attention for long. The international body charged with policing bioweapons is the Biological Weapons Convention. Its annual budget is just €1.4m (£1.2m). As Ord points out with due derision, that sum is less than the turnover of the average McDonald’s restaurant.

If that’s food for thought, Ord has another gastronomic comparison that’s even harder to swallow. While he’s not sure exactly how much the world invests in measuring existential risk, he’s confident, he writes, that we spend “more on ice-cream every year than on ensuring that the technologies we develop don’t destroy us”.

Ord insists that he is not a pessimist. There are constructive measures to be taken. Humanity, he says, is in its adolescence, and like a teenager that has the physical strength of an adult but lacks foresight and patience, we are a danger to ourselves until we mature. He recommends that, in the meantime, we slow the pace of technological development so as to allow our understanding of its implications to catch up and to build a more advanced moral appreciation of our plight.

He is, after all, a moral philosopher. This is why he argues that it’s vital that, if humanity is to survive, we need a much larger frame of reference for what is right and good. At the moment we hugely undervalue the future, and have little moral grasp of how our actions may affect the thousands of generations that could – or alternatively, might not – come after us.

Our descendants, he says, are in the position of colonised peoples: they’re politically disenfranchised, with no say in the decisions being made that will directly affect them or stop them from existing.

“Just because they can’t vote,” he says, “doesn’t mean they can’t be represented.”

Of course, there are also concrete issues to address such as global heating and environmental depredation. Ord acknowledges that climate change may lead to “a global calamity of unprecedented scale”, but he’s not convinced that it represents an actual existential risk to humanity (or civilisation). That’s not to say that it isn’t an urgent concern: only that our survival isn’t yet on the line.

Perhaps the biggest immediate threat is the continued abundance of nuclear weapons. Since the end of the cold war, the arms race has been reversed and the number of active warheads cut from more than 70,000 in the 1980s to about 3,750 today. Start (the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty), which was instrumental in bringing about the decrease, is due to lapse next year. “From what I hear at the moment,” says Ord, “the Russians and Americans have no plan to renew it, which is insane.”

Sooner or later all questions of existential risk come down to a global understanding and agreements. That’s problematic, because while our economic systems are international, our political systems remain almost entirely national or federal. Problems that affect everyone are consequently owned by no one in particular. If humanity is to step back from the precipice, it will have to learn how to recognise its common bonds as greater than its differences.

There are many predictions currently being made about how the world might be changed by the coronavirus. The philosopher John Gray recently declared that it spelt the end of hyperglobalisation and the reassertion of the importance of the nation state.

“Contrary to the progressive mantra,” Gray wrote in an essay, “global problems do not always have global solutions… the belief that this crisis can be solved by an unprecedented outbreak of international cooperation is magical thinking in its purest form.”

But nor can individual countries afford to turn their backs on the world, at least not for long. The pandemic may not engender deeper international cooperation and a keener appreciation of the fact that we are, so to speak, all in it together. Ultimately, though, we will have to arrive at that kind of unity if we’re to avoid far greater afflictions in the future.

OP posts:
SistemaAddict · 26/04/2020 13:50

Those with lung disease often struggle more when wearing masks. In winter it's not so bad and I used to advise my COPD and asthma patients to put a scarf over their nose and mouth so that the cold air is less cold when it hits the airways. Cold air is a trigger. In summer heat masks would be awful to wear and would make my asthma worse. I don't know what the answer is and many won't wear them anyway regardless of the guidance because they will think it doesn't apply to them as we've seen with current guidelines.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2020 15:26

beta.ctvnews.ca/national/coronavirus/2020/4/22/1_4907290.html
Amputations, organ failure, blood clotting: The range of complications in COVID-19 cases

Keepdistance · 26/04/2020 15:27

Im sure asthmatic nurses are wearing some ppe.
Thing is most people would only need to wear a short time when on public transport or walking in busy city or supermarket.

Other hot countries seem to be managing

HeIenaDove · 26/04/2020 18:26

A lot of other hot countries have a dry heat. The UK has a humid heat.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2020 19:54

John Burn-Murdoch @jburnmurdoch
NEW: a lot of data on reported Covid deaths is highly suspect, so we’ve been looking into excess mortality — how many more people than usual have been dying around the world in recent weeks?

^Story by me, @ChrisGiles_ & @valentinaromei (free to read):
amp.ft.com/content/6bd88b7d-3386-4543-b2e9-0d5c6fac846c?__twitter_impression=true
Global coronavirus death toll could be 60% higher than reported
Mortality statistics show 122,000 deaths in excess of normal levels across 14 countries analysed by the FT

The numbers are remarkable, and put to bed the idea that Covid-19 is akin to a bad flu season.

You can clearly see that in almost every country, spikes in mortality are far higher than what we see from flu etc (grey lines are historical death numbers)

The picture is even more stark in the cities & regions hardest hit by outbreaks.

In Ecuador’s Guayas province, 245 Covid deaths have been reported to date, but all-cause mortality data show more than 10,000 extra deaths since 1 March compared to the average in recent years.

So far we’ve analysed data from 14 countries, finding 122,000 more deaths in recent weeks than the usual average for those same places and same weeks.

This is an increase of 52%. Crucially, that’s also 45,000 more deaths than accounted for in reported Covid deaths.

Ecuador is emblematic. For several weeks it’s been clear that the reported numbers vastly understate the true death toll, with coffins piling up in the streets.

Excess all-cause mortality is the best way to get around this data quality issue and reveal what’s really happening.

But it’s far from just Ecuador. In several other countries overall excess mortality is much higher than reported Covid deaths.

This includes England & Wales (47% more excess deaths than reported Covid deaths), Sweden (40%), Spain (33%), and many others

In the coming weeks, we’ll be joining @JCDT, @atmccann and co at @TheEconomist & @nytimes in the quest to get a handle on the true human cost of coronavirus.

We’ll be updating our excess mortality numbers for our current set of 14 countries, and expanding that list.

The data also highlight another point I’ve been making:

Covid outbreaks are much better understood as happening on a local than national scale.

Here are excess deaths across England & Wales.

London deaths have almost doubled vs usual. In the South West, uptick is much smaller.

Also suggests excess mort is good proxy for true Covid death toll.

If excess deaths were just capturing heart attacks at home, deaths directly related to lockdown etc, we’d expect excess mort to rise similarly everywhere.

But we see far bigger spikes where outbreaks are worst.

Notes on methodology:
In each case we establish a historical baseline using deaths in the same country/city for the same weeks in 2015-2019
Our excess deaths are the 2020 number minus that average

Even when using official mortality statistics like this, there can be a lag in reporting, meaning more deaths can be retrospectively assigned to past dates.

This means our excess mort numbers may rise for the weeks we’re already showing here as well as over future weeks.

In case anyone wondered why we don’t include Istanbul here, we believe the spike in burials in Istanbul are displaced rather than excess: many Istanbul residents who’d typically be buried in their home towns are unable to travel, so they’re being buried in Istanbul instead.

Finally, a short process thread on the Eucador data:

I’ve been looking for all-cause mortality in Ecuador for about a month now, and made a breakthrough last week when I stumbled upon this 2019 study of Ecuador’s mortality registry t.co/61fAJXor2J

Worried About Coronavirus- thread 38
Worried About Coronavirus- thread 38
Worried About Coronavirus- thread 38
pocketem · 26/04/2020 21:28

India's overall mortality is actually significantly lower so far this year than average. Thought to be due to less traffic accidents and less transmission of other infectious diseases

buttermilkwaffles · 26/04/2020 21:46

Italian PM announces details of lifting lockdown, restaurants etc to open from 01 June, schools stay closed until September.

buttermilkwaffles · 26/04/2020 21:50

Source for Italy info above:
mobile.twitter.com/MKWilliamsRome/status/1254486320401047552