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Worried About Coronavirus- thread 38

991 replies

TheStarryNight · 18/04/2020 13:57

New thread

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51
RedToothBrush · 23/04/2020 09:24

Taylor Wimpey don't think there will be a massive house price crash then...

StrawberryJam200 · 23/04/2020 09:44

@RedToothBrush wow that's amazing re waste water testing!

And as for the fake twitter accounts (a few posts below).....

woodencoffeetable · 23/04/2020 09:47

I just listened to yesterday's more-or-less...
I really like that show but this time I was a bit Hmm about some of their conclusions.

SistemaAddict · 23/04/2020 09:58

For the first time in all this, I really don't know what to think. So many articles and accounts causing confusion and doubt. I just have to do what is best for my family and me and that means keeping us all at home for now. I have no reason to go out, I trust my GP and will follow his advice. We are thankfully coping fine at home which amazes me seeing as we've been at home for nearly 6 weeks now. I consider myself lucky in that as I know others are struggling greatly even though they can go out to shop and to exercise.

pocketem · 23/04/2020 11:06

Deputy CMO Jenny Harries admits she has had coronavirus. She was off work for 10 days earlier this month. She reports she didn't have the usual respiratory symptoms but felt "off", was not eating and generally frail

FingonTheValiant · 23/04/2020 11:09

I know they’ve found the virus in waste water in Paris too. They’ve confirmed it’s not in the drinking water. Looks like a few places have been checking that.

pocketem · 23/04/2020 11:23

they’ve found the virus in waste water

We need to be careful with terminology. They've found traces of coronavirus RNA in the water. That's quite different to having a viable virus. RNA is only one part of the virus

pocketem · 23/04/2020 11:42

Another BME doctor dies of coronavirus

Dr Medhat Atalla, a consultant geriatrician at Doncaster Royal Infirmary is the latest to succumb to the virus.

The Chief Executive of the trust said in a statement: "A hugely popular and respected colleague, Dr Atalla was a very special human being who practiced medicine across three continents throughout his career, affecting the lives of so many in a positive way. He was a truly gentle gentleman and will be hugely missed by us all."

Worried About Coronavirus- thread 38
Keepdistance · 23/04/2020 11:46

Is the wastewater mainly poop/wee or showering do you think?
As schipol airport? Surely airport waste in most countries will be high on Covid.

I cant see their conclusion of 8th being too early.
Poor care/late treatment /not being allowed into hospital and icu would all cause more people to die and more quickly. Or peak related specifically to certain events
Foorltball match/cheltenham/etc.
Many schools and businesses shut early.
Pretty sure parliament disappear quickly too.
Even if pubs were technically open people were avoiding.
Despite not having to shield until that one weekend many people hadnt been out for weeks or seen elderly relatives.
Many of the public are more sensible than the government.
What % of kids were removed weeks-days before they closed.

Keepdistance · 23/04/2020 12:02

Actually surely poop wee sample testing makes more sense than the inaccurate nasal swab? And continues to shed after infection?

Re the strokes NY also had a lot of heart attacks. Aspirin for all adults then?
I was ill recently (cough maybe shortness of breath) but kelt feeling like my heart was racing. Like my heart was going faster to cope - so my spo2 only went down to 98%.

They are finding heart damage on severe cases.

Would checking more young peoples heart health and t2 diabetes risk help.

There was also that 14yo boy who supposedly had a heart attack rather than covid....

Infections can cause heart issues my dd (4yo at the time) had lots of illnesses croup and hand foot and mouth and uti then ended up with 40deg temps but we were refused AB despite her screaming with ear pain. This happened several times until a younger better gp saw her and diagnosed ear infection and unfortunately now a heart murmur. It was new as at least 3 drs incl hospital had listened to her chest that week.
Things like scarlett fever affect the heart.

Would aspirin if you have covid have any negative affects?

MollyButton · 23/04/2020 12:23

I read somewhere that traces of the virus have been found in Urine, which is another reason for handwashing.

TheStarryNight · 23/04/2020 12:35

Doctors try to untangle why they're seeing 'unprecedented' blood clotting among Covid-19 patients

By Elizabeth Cohen, CNN

Dr. Kathryn Hibbert's Covid-19 patient in the intensive care unit was not doing well. As his blood pressure plummeted, she tried to insert an intravenous line into an artery in his wrist.

A blood clot clogged the tubing.

Frustrated, Hibbert tried again with a new needle. A blood clot clogged up that line as well.

It took three tries to insert the IV.

"You just watch it clot right in front of you," said Hibbert, director of the medical intensive care unit at Massachusetts General Hospital. "It's rare to have that happen once, and extremely rare to have that happen twice."

Hibbert and other doctors are finding that some patients infected with the novel coronavirus have a propensity towards developing blood clots, which can be life threatening if the clot travels to the heart or lungs.

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Eeyoresstickhouse · 23/04/2020 12:37

Re heart issues. I had influenza A back in October last year. I was off work for 3 weeks but after the first week I was rushed by ambulance due to pre ventricular contractions. They have put this down to the flu causing them. I had lots of tests and a heart monitor for 2 weeks, and the PVC's showed on that as well. This stopped around February and I haven't suffered with them since.

BloomedAgain · 23/04/2020 12:47

I'm still shielding, keeping busy with wfh work and coping quite well. Reading all the studies linked here actually helps me to cope. I wonder whether ultimately everyone will be exposed to covid19 as the vaccine will take some time?

TheStarryNight · 23/04/2020 12:48

Continued...

”The number of clotting problems I'm seeing in the ICU, all related to Covid-19, is unprecedented," Dr. Jeffrey Laurence, a hematologist at Weill Cornell Medicine in New York City, wrote in an email to CNN.

"Blood clotting problems appear to be widespread in severe Covid."

Laurence and his colleagues looked at autopsies on two patients and found blood clots in the lungs and just beneath the surface of the skin, according to a study published last week. They also found blood clots beneath the skin's surface on three living patients.

In the Netherlands, a study found "remarkably high" rates of clotting among Covid patients in the ICU.

An international consortium of experts from more than 30 hospitals gathered to consider the issue. Their conclusion: It's unclear exactly why, but coronavirus patients may be predisposed to having clots.

"This is one of the most talked about questions in Covid right now," said Dr. Michelle Gong, chief of the division of critical care medicine at Montefiore Medical Center in New York City.

At Montefiore, they've started to put all Covid-19 patients on low doses of blood thinners to prevent clots, Gong said.

Not all hospitals have taken that step -- but they're still concerned.

”It's out of the norm, and we're wondering, are blot clots one of the reasons why these patients are dying," said Dr. Todd Rice, an associate professor of medicine at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville.

'Alarming' rates of blood clots

Being in the intensive care unit, sick and lying still, can be a perfect storm for blood clots for any patient.

"Even before Covid, we're on high alert for suspicion of clots in the ICU because they're at high risk," Gong said.

Even so, doctors have a hunch that Covid patients might be clotting even more than other ICU patients.

The Dutch study of 184 patients in the ICU with Covid-19-related pneumonia found that more than 20% were having clotting issues. A study of 81 similarly ill patients in Wuhan, China, found a 25% incidence of clots.

Dr. Behnood Bikdeli, who helped coordinate the international coalition of physicians looking into the clotting issue, called those numbers "alarming."

Bikdeli, a cardiovascular medicine fellow at Columbia University Irving Medical Center, said there are three major reasons why Covid-19 patients might have an especially high risk of clotting.

One is that vast majority of patients who become severely ill with coronavirus have underlying medical problems, such as diabetes, heart disease and high blood pressure. These patients -- whether they have coronavirus or not - have a higher tendency to clot than healthy patients.

Second, one way coronavirus can kill patients is through a "cytokine storm," where the body's own immune response turns on itself. Patients experiencing that storm, because of coronavirus, influenza, or any other reason are at a higher risk for clotting.

The third reason is that there could be something about the novel coronavirus itself that's causing clots.

Doctors say it's hard to know exactly what's behind what they're seeing with Covid-19 patients in the ICU.

"My gut tells me there are probably a subset of Covid patients who have really abnormal clotting behavior, that this is happening more frequently than we would expect it to," said Hibbert, an instructor at Harvard Medical School.

She quickly added, though, that doctors' gut feelings are "notoriously misleading" and that studies need to be done to get to the bottom of exactly how common clotting is among coronavirus patients.

A tricky fix

Fixing these clotting issues can be tricky.

While a low dose of blood thinners to prevent clots is generally considered low risk, that might not be enough to prevent clots in some patients. Giving larger doses, however, could make a patient bleed excessively, which can be deadly.

That leaves doctors in a conundrum. Some patients might benefit from larger doses of blood thinners because they're very sick with Covid-19, and their blood tests show they have elevated levels of D-dimer, a substance that indicates they might have clotting issues.

Doctors at Harvard have proposed doing a large study on blood thinners for these patients, Hibbert said.

"There's a crying need for these kinds of rapid trials," Gong said.

Laurence, the hematologist at Weill Cornell, said since treating clotting can be so tricky, he wants to figure out what's causing the clotting in the first place.

"We're trying to shut off what's causing it," he said. "There's overexuberant clotting going on with Covid patients, and we're trying to keep ahead of it."

While studies sort this out, doctors are being extra vigilant with their Covid-19 patients.

Hibbert described how a nurse recently had to constantly administer a blood thinner called heparin to a Covid-19 patient while the patient was undergoing kidney dialysis, because clots kept clogging up the tubing in the machine.

"We had the nurse at the bedside pushing heparin to keep the machine from clotting off. That's very rare," Hibbert said.

Hibbert said she awaits the day when a study will nail down how often Covid-19 patients are having clotting issues, and what to do about them.

”This is one of the many challenges in taking care of critically ill patients and trying to decide if what you're seeing at the bedside is rare and happening by chance, or if it's part of a larger pattern that could change your practice," she said.

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TheStarryNight · 23/04/2020 13:01

New Covid-19 crisis hits ICUs as more patients need dialysis

By Maggie Fox, CNN

Emergency room doctors say they are running into a new crisis as they struggle to treat patients with Covid-19 -- a shortage of dialysis machines and supplies.

They say they are overwhelmed, not only because patients are going into kidney failure, but also because the body's intense reaction to the virus is often causing their blood to clot too much, and the clots are literally clogging up the dialysis filters.

It's part of the new syndrome that doctors are seeing in Covid-19 patients. They are not dying from the pneumonia that has been one of the defining symptoms of serious Covid-19 disease, but from other systemic effects on their hearts and other organs.

"It's taken everyone by surprise because it is acting so different from everything else," said Dr. Sam Parnia, a critical care specialist at New York University Langone Medical Center.

"They are not dying because they can't get enough oxygen. They are actually dying because of other complications and it is predominately due to blood clots."

And these blood clots are clogging up the filters used to clean the blood during dialysis, Parnia and other doctors told CNN. Intensive care units are already struggling to get enough dialysis equipment and staff to care for Covid-19 patients and the crisis is made worse because they go through so many supplies.

"There aren't enough filters," Parnia told CNN.

Clots clogging filters

Dr. Enrique Lopez, a surgical intensive care specialist at Phoebe Putney Health System in Albany, Georgia, says he is seeing the same thing.

"Their blood does not clot appropriately. It's overclotting," Lopez told CNN. "When we put patients on dialysis, they have a tendency to clot the filters."

The clotting is likely caused by what's known as a cytokine storm -- an intense response of the immune system to an infection. Some patients with Covid-19 are experiencing this overreaction, and one result is blood clots in the lungs, liver, kidneys and possibly the brain and heart, also, doctors are saying.

"When people are reporting on autopsy results, they are seeing clots everywhere in the body," Parnia said. He said he suspected the blood clots are damaging the kidneys.
Dr. David Charytan, who heads nephrology at NYU Langone Health, said there's also evidence the virus is directly attacking the kidneys.

The result is a much larger need for dialysis than normal in ICUs already filled to overflowing with Covid-19 patients, Charytan said.

"One day last week, we had 186 patients intubated with Covid," he said. That means they were attached to ventilators to help them breathe.

Normally, he added, about 10% of ICU patients would need dialysis. "We're seeing 20% to 30% needing dialysis," Charytan said.

And the ICU is normally equipped to handle 118 patients, so 186 patients means a more than 50 % overload.

"It's been a real struggle," Charytan added.

Lopez said it means making hard choices. "You have to try to decide who's going to get dialysis and who's not," he said.

Some doctors have tried using blood thinners such as heparin to try to reduce the clotting, but there's not enough evidence to show whether such treatment helps patients survive.

"We are trying whatever we can," Lopez added.

Need for dialysis supplies

And they are struggling to get the equipment and staff they need.

It's especially difficult to deliver what's known as continuous renal replacement therapy or CRRT -- a low, 24-hour-a-day method of dialysis used in the ICU to avoid stressing the hearts of fragile patients.

Last week, Dr. Jai Radhakrishnan, a Columbia University professor of medicine, went on social media to beg for help. "Dire straits in NYC!! Shortage of dialysis nurses, CRRT machines and fluids across all hospitals," he tweeted.

"A month ago everyone, simply thought this was an issue with ventilators," Parnia said. Public health experts warned that the US lacked enough ventilators to treat the number of patients who would need them, and companies such as General Motors switched their production lines to making ventilator equipment. GM said Friday it was delivering the first batch ventilators made in partnership with Ventec Life Systems in Kokomo, Indiana, to hospitals in the Chicago area.

But ventilators may no longer be the main need, the ICU specialists said.

"We are not going to run out of ventilators. We are going to run out of supplies for the 30% of patients who need dialysis," Charytan said.

Parnia added: "Right now, dialysis is the key thing that's needed. I don't know why they call it Covid pneumonia. They could just as easily call it renal (kidney) failure with pneumonia."

OP posts:
Focusanddetermination · 23/04/2020 13:28

I've noticed that the 'Stay Home' advert's frequency has dropped

Where I work (medium sized city) business has put MASSIVE pressure on, trying to stop any public bodies using the stay at home message. In fact asking them to do the opposite on comms and tell everyone that they should turn up to work. This is because staff have been reluctant to come in and the businesses fear economic damage.

JanetheObscure · 23/04/2020 13:34

Interesting about the blood clots. We know someone who has been very ill with Covid 19; they came out of intensive care, but had a stroke very shortly afterwards. There were clots in their lungs.

They are now on the slow road to recovery, thankfully. The doctors said they are increasingly seeing clots.

onlinelinda · 23/04/2020 14:14

I wouldn't be surprised by fake accounts. There was a support thread about Boris and it was absolutely jumped on by a load of his supporters, seemed odd to me.

TheStarryNight · 23/04/2020 14:50

Seniors with Covid-19 show unusual symptoms, doctors say

Judith Graham, Kaiser Health News, reported on CNN

Older adults with Covid-19, the illness caused by the coronavirus, have several "atypical" symptoms, complicating efforts to ensure they get timely and appropriate treatment, according to physicians.

Covid-19 is typically signaled by three symptoms: a fever, an insistent cough and shortness of breath. But older adults — the age group most at risk of severe complications or death from this condition ― may have none of these characteristics.

Instead, seniors may seem "off" — not acting like themselves ― early on after being infected by the coronavirus. They may sleep more than usual or stop eating. They may seem unusually apathetic or confused, losing orientation to their surroundings. They may become dizzy and fall. Sometimes, seniors stop speaking or simply collapse.

"With a lot of conditions, older adults don't present in a typical way, and we're seeing that with Covid-19 as well," said Dr. Camille Vaughan, section chief of geriatrics and gerontology at Emory University.

Altered immune response

The reason has to do with how older bodies respond to illness and infection.

At advanced ages, "someone's immune response may be blunted and their ability to regulate temperature may be altered," said Dr. Joseph Ouslander, a professor of geriatric medicine at Florida Atlantic University's Schmidt College of Medicine.

"Underlying chronic illnesses can mask or interfere with signs of infection," he said. "Some older people, whether from age-related changes or previous neurologic issues such as a stroke, may have altered cough reflexes. Others with cognitive impairment may not be able to communicate their symptoms."

Read early signals

Recognizing danger signs is important: If early symptoms of Covid-19 are missed, seniors may deteriorate before getting needed care. And people may go in and out of their homes without adequate protective measures, risking the spread of infection.

Dr. Quratulain Syed, an Atlanta geriatrician, describes a man in his 80s who she treated in mid-March. Over a period of days, this patient, who had heart disease, diabetes and moderate cognitive impairment, stopped walking and became incontinent and profoundly lethargic. But he didn't have a fever or a cough. His only respiratory symptom: sneezing off and on.

The man's elderly spouse called 911 twice. Both times, paramedics checked his vital signs and declared he was OK. After another worried call from the overwhelmed spouse, Syed insisted the patient be taken to the hospital, where he tested positive for Covid-19.

"I was quite concerned about the paramedics and health aides who'd been in the house and who hadn't used PPE [personal protective equipment]," Syed said.

Anecdotal case reporting

Dr. Sam Torbati, medical director of the Ruth and Harry Roman Emergency Department at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, describes treating seniors who initially appear to be trauma patients but are found to have Covid-19.

"They get weak and dehydrated," he said, "and when they stand to walk, they collapse and injure themselves badly."

Torbati has seen older adults who are profoundly disoriented and unable to speak and who appear at first to have suffered strokes.

"When we test them, we discover that what's producing these changes is a central nervous system effect of coronavirus," he said.

Dr. Laura Perry, an assistant professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco, saw a patient like this several weeks ago. The woman, in her 80s, had what seemed to be a cold before becoming very confused. In the hospital, she couldn't identify where she was or stay awake during an examination. Perry diagnosed hypoactive delirium, an altered mental state in which people become inactive and drowsy. The patient tested positive for coronavirus and is still in the ICU.

Dr. Anthony Perry, an associate professor of geriatric medicine at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago, tells of an 81-year-old woman with nausea, vomiting and diarrhea who tested positive for Covid-19 in the emergency room. After receiving IV fluids, oxygen and medication for her intestinal upset, she returned home after two days and is doing well.

Another 80-year-old Rush patient with similar symptoms — nausea and vomiting, but no cough, fever or shortness of breath ― is in intensive care after getting a positive Covid-19 test and due to be put on a ventilator. The difference? This patient is frail with "a lot of cardiovascular disease," Perry said. Other than that, it's not yet clear why some older patients do well while others do not.

Data collection of atypical symptoms

So far, reports of cases like these have been anecdotal. But a few physicians are trying to gather more systematic information.

In Switzerland, Dr. Sylvain Nguyen, a geriatrician at the University of Lausanne Hospital Center, has put together a list of typical and atypical symptoms in older Covid-19 patients in a forthcoming paper in the Revue Médicale Suisse. Included on the atypical list are changes in a patient's usual status, delirium, falls, fatigue, lethargy, low blood pressure, painful swallowing, fainting, diarrhea, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain and the loss of smell and taste.

Data comes from hospitals and nursing homes in Switzerland, Italy and France, Nguyen said in an email.

On the front lines, physicians need to make sure they carefully assess an older patient's symptoms.

Other complicating factors

"While we have to have a high suspicion of Covid-19 because it's so dangerous in the older population, there are many other things to consider," said Dr. Kathleen Unroe, a geriatrician at Indiana University's School of Medicine.

Seniors may also do poorly because their routines have changed. In nursing homes and most assisted living centers, activities have stopped and "residents are going to get weaker and more deconditioned because they're not walking to and from the dining hall," she said.

At home, isolated seniors may not be getting as much help with medication management or other essential needs from family members who are keeping their distance, other experts suggested. Or they may have become apathetic or depressed.

"I'd want to know 'What's the potential this person has had an exposure [to the coronavirus], especially in the last two weeks?'" said Vaughan of Emory. "Do they have home health personnel coming in? Have they gotten together with other family members? Are chronic conditions being controlled? Is there another diagnosis that seems more likely?"

"Someone may be just having a bad day. But if they're not themselves for a couple of days, absolutely reach out to a primary care doctor or a local health system hotline to see if they meet the threshold for [coronavirus] testing," Vaughan advised. "Be persistent. If you get a 'no' the first time and things aren't improving, call back and ask again."

Kaiser Health News (KHN) is a nonprofit news service covering health issues. It is an editorially independent program of the Kaiser Family Foundation that is not affiliated with Kaiser Permanente.

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WhyNotMe40 · 23/04/2020 15:22

The Cheltenham festival effect

www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/cheltenham-news/leaked-map-shows-postcode-next-4071259

buttermilkwaffles · 23/04/2020 15:37

Re the clotting, a US doctor was talking yesterday about seeing an increase in strokes, even amongst younger people and the importance of monitoring your symptoms at home to include being aware of what stroke symptoms are and to seek urgent medical help if they occur.

pocketem · 23/04/2020 15:38

@TheStarryNight interesting. Seems to match what we have seen on our old age psychiatric unit. We have a large outbreak of COVID but don't have many people who have the classic respiratory symptoms - we were all geared up to provide oxygen and end of life drugs etc but the COVID-positive patients instead are presenting with general lethargy, staying in bed, not eating or drinking but otherwise undistressed and comfortable. Not breathless at all, just slowly wasting away. More likely to die of dehydration than respiratory failure. Interesting to read that it is the international experience